Trying to help others without being an elitist.

[Not_An_Uber_Tank]

OK so I have started building up an alt Tank with my DK, and since I only run my main for guild runs, I tend to PUG a lot with my DK. The question I have is what is the best way to tell people that they are not performing well for their gear or class in a constructive way? I have been Tanking a lot of H ToC (5 man) and the common issue is lack of DPS. I will post two examples below and would appreciate your input.

1. Low Geared DPS – Players that simply are not ready for H ToC. I try to be ok with it when we have other geared toons running, but how do you explain that they may need to run some Reg Instances or Heroics to get ready for ToC?

2. Low Performing DPS – Players that way meet the gear check, yet seem to not be able to execute. Perfect example of this was an Unholy??? DK that had a 4500 GS (Decent Gear for DPS) and yet was running about 2000 – 2500 DPS.

The reason I ask is over the past few days it seems I am pissing people of by saying things like we are not out DPS’ing Argent Confessor Paletress heals on the nightmare. Or we aren’t out DPS’ing the heals from the Runok Wildmane during the champions fight. I am trying to be constructive, but I guess it is coming off as elitist. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Satorri]

Your question is a tricky one, I think, because it sounds like you're trying to offer unsolicited advice/feedback to PUG members. I wouldn't offer something if they don't ask for it, if it is a stranger you haven't met and just ran a random instance with. Offering advice/feedback when they don't ask for it is easily considered self-righteous or arrogant, and if your tone suggests that you are better, you can call it elitist.

That said, this is a matter that comes up with raid teams frequently, so I can offer something there.

I prefer to come at it sideways. Rather than just punching someone in the face with, "you're not doing good enough," try to identify why, or get them to identify weaknesses. If they have an odd talent choice, ask them why they took it, or ask them if they ever tried a different choice (like the way you think works better). The same works for skill use and play style. Gear is a little trickier. It's hard to ask why someone isn't running content that is an obvious step up rather than two or three. More often than not you can get the obvious answer that this gives better rewards. That is an issue that is largely about pugs, not raid groups, and at the end of the day I think all you can do is head those people off before inviting them, or when you run into a clear wall, just tell them, "sorry, you're not keeping up with the group, we need to replace you if we're going to clear this. Have you tried XXRegular/Heroic?"

Courtesy is really the best thing you can do, angry or inconsiderate dismissals can paint you in the elitist jerk category (rightly, I suppose). I've had more than a couple people accept being told that and actually seek my advice, when I handled it honestly, but diplomatically.

At the end of the day, just remind yourself that, whether they are a good or bad player, geared or not, there is actually a person on the other side of the computer.

[jere]

It's difficult to do so without coming off as elitist to someone. Everyone has their own buttons that can be pushed.

One of the main things you can do is try to make it less directed towards the person. State at the beginning of the fight breakdown/discussion that in order to beat the encounter you need each person averaging over X amount of DPS. If an attempt wasn't a success due to the lack of DPS, post the log publically and highlight that the group as a whole needs to work on the DPS and that yall have to have everyone averaging that amount. Don't call people out specifically unless you have to. Let them make the connection when you start throwing out the different DoTs.

[veneretio]

You really should never try to educate pugs, ever. It's not worth it. They don't know you. They don't trust you. Just don't do it. Look at the situation and determine how you can contribute more instead of trying to tell them how they are contributing less.

[Reev]

Yeah, it's generally not worth it to educate a pug. If they notice they are underperforming, they'll seek out help on their own, or else your unsolicited advice wouldn't have helped them. If they keep getting kicked from groups because they aren't cutting the mustard, they'll figure it out and it's not your job to make them.

If you just set a good example in your runs, then the kind of person who would be open to suggestions will likely seek you out for your input. That's the right time to give it. I've had several times when very well geared rogues are surprised when I outdamage them with a titansteel shanker and 232 gutgore ripper. The ones who aren't insulted usually come to me and say something like, "how did you do that?" That's the right time to help people. If they don't ask for it, they likely don't want it, or don't know they need it.

[Martie]

If you start your comments with something positive, they are generally not experienced as being so negative.

Another trick you can use is to be as objective as possible - if what you say cannot be reasonably said to be an opinion, they shouldn't have hurt feelings over it.

Try to formulate your comments as a question about the class. Instead of being elitist, you seem interested, and instead of you telling him what he did wrong, he will be telling you how he screwed up/around.

Try to do these things in whispers - public humiliation is not something people like.

1. Low Geared DPS – Players that simply are not ready for H ToC. I try to be ok with it when we have other geared toons running, but how do you explain that they may need to run some Reg Instances or Heroics to get ready for ToC?

"Hey man, you do some good dps for your gear level, but it's not enough."
"Hey, this place is rather rough, with a lot of AoE going around, There's a good chance you won't survive, so you should try going normal mode a few times first."
"Are you hit-capped? I'm working on an alt of my own, and was wondering how important it is to be hit capped as a mage/lock/whatever."
(I must make a note here - any fresh dpser who spends a bit of effort on his gear should be able to do this - no epics required.)

2. Low Performing DPS – Players that way meet the gear check, yet seem to not be able to execute. Perfect example of this was an Unholy??? DK that had a 4500 GS (Decent Gear for DPS) and yet was running about 2000 – 2500 DPS.

"You've got some really nice gear there mate, but that's no reason to slack."
"Last time I saw a DK with your level of gear he was doing a lot more dps, could you pick it up please?"
"Hey, what rotation are you using? I've been wondering about what unholy DKs use these days."

[Taoden]

For an entirely different approach you could make it a point to be an elitist and use the Darwinism method. First things first, always gear check. And I don't mean gearscore! Check their armory to see if their gems, enchants, gear choices, and talents make sense. If the person is simply undergeared, politely tell them that you are looking for someone with better gear and move on. If the gear check shows that they most likely lack a fundamental understanding of what stats and talents provide the best performance for their class, call them out on it. Gear checking in the manner will weed out 90% of the scrubs from your PUGs. Even if the player mindlessly copied a cookie cutter talent spec and gem/enchant setup, at least you know he cared enough about his performance to spend a little time researching improvements.

If someone makes it past the gear check and is still performing poorly, be an elitist jerk and call em out on it. But be prepared to back yourself up. I often find that many terrible players are extremely stubborn about how they do things and most of them will put you on ignore if you try to explain anything to them. This is a good thing.

If a player is terrible at their character, and too ignorant to change even when there is solid evidence that he is underperforming, why would you ever want to group with him anyway? If he puts you on ignore, you never again have to worry about accidentally allowing him into one of your PUGs. He's done the blacklisting for you by having your character on ignore. Even if the person takes you off ignore, he may still remember you as being an elitist jerk and try to avoid you.

This is why I call it Darwinism. Ultimately, only the strong (or at least adaptable) survive to group with you again in the future. The others write you off as a jerk while you write them off as a scrub. This frees you up to group with other decent players and lets them be free to group with other scrubs.

Is it arrogant? Hell yes! They don't call it being an elitist for nothing. However, as long as you play well enough to back it up, you really don't have much to lose.

[Daereg]

I find it always works better if you be friendly about it, try and get along with them before you dish out some criticism. "Yeah those adds are a bitch, but you just gotta keep watching your raid frames, be fast with AOE taunting, etc". Dunno about criticizing DPSers though, if they're doing 2500DPS in sweet gear, they're probably new to the game and need to study the game more rather than take criticism.

[swelt]

I remember trying to talk to a warrior in a VOA pug. He had 71 points in Arms (including poleaxe, sword AND mace spec). I was as polite and helpful as I could be. All I got in return was spite. Shortly after, he was kicked from the group (you might be surprised to find out that his dps was poor).

[Dreg]

Personally, I avoid helping pugs. They don't listen and I believe its important to want to improve ones self, not wait around till some one tells me how it works.

On the reverse, I've had pugs try and educate me. I'm not going to say I'm amazing at everything I do, but generally I have a baseline idea. Atleast 3/4ths of the time people have told me what to do they contradicted what other trusted sources told me. Why listen to other pugs when they're probably wrong?

Like I said I prefer to avoid it, if they are really that bad either replace them or just bear with it. if they don't want to fix them selves or dont realize it then they probably wont change either way.

[Boeten]

In 3.3, supposedly the LFG tool is going to have a gear requirement defined by Blizzard to help with your first problem. So if the first point is really getting on your nerve, always use the LFG tool next patch (3.3) to find PUG for H ToC and Icecrown 5 men.

As for 2nd, well, I'm going to use the post above by Dreg, but reverses the viewpoint...

Even if I tell them how to play properly, a lot of people will just dismiss me as "another guy who says things that contradicted what my other sources told me". So why should they listen to me, when they think that I'm probably wrong?

So I personally wouldn't try to educate PUG. I don't have a definite proof that I'm right, and even if I have the proof by simulator or theorycrafting, it may consume a lot more of my time and effort than just trying to brute force the 5 man encounter.

[Xianth]

9 out of 10 people who play "poor" are that way because they refuse to take advice or improve themselves, so any way you approach them will result in them being on the defensive anyway.

[Hammerfists]

@Taoden: I completely agree with your method and practice it myself but this is ToC 5 man we are talking about not 10 or 25. If you gotta gear check or educate people to do ToC 5 man i highly recommend a server transfer to a more established realm, check wow progress. Trust me save yourself the headache of seeing poor performers and poorly geared toons left and right and you must see plenty to have posted. Pugs don't care they just want the loot/badges like someone said the don't know you so they don't know what knowledge you have outside the toon you are currently playing.

@Satorri: Well put if you stay i feel that the indirect approach works the best. It doesn't put the spot light on anyone and hopefully the light bulb clicks.

[Mert]

I was having trouble with a ToC-5 a little while back myself. It was the first boss and we drew the Shaman, Rogue and Warrior. Not the nicest combination but still do-able.

I know some would advocate getting the Rogue out of the way in this scenario but I usually find with low-DPS PUGs it's easier to get the healer out of the way first. If the Rogue ganks them they can always just run back in and I can typically keep myself alive with cooldowns and Lay on Hands long enough for the healer to release and run.

Anyway, all I said was "hey guys, I know you're doing this already but the easy way to get the healer down is to simply stop him from healing rather than trying to out-DPS his heals. Keep Aimed Shot up on him the whole time, keep him stunned and interrupt him if you notice him casting something. I'll try and keep HoJ on him on each CD as well to help out".

The next attempt, Kicks went up from 1 to about 6 and Aimed Shot went from 0% to near enough 100% uptime and we proceeded to one-shot the rest of the instance.

Obviously I could see from Recount that they just weren't doing their job but rather than call them out individually I made it sound as though I knew they were doing it but just wanted to restate it for clarity. I didn't call anyone out individually but nobody wants to be called out the next time so they all stepped it up a level and did what they were supposed to.

Nobody complained or said I was elitist, arrogant or patronising - they just saw what they were meant to do as part of a wider, group-wide statement and addressed it. Perhaps they didn't know it was a healer or perhaps they were just on auto-pilot and not thinking, but either way it worked a charm.

I do similar in raids I lead as well - rather than say "Rogues, you fecked up the Kick rotation" I'll say "make sure the Kick rotation is absolutely solid this time". It's basically saying the same thing but it seems to get less of a negative response from people.

[Bennuo]

Well i've had some problems with that myself, in raids. There is no good way telling it to some players, some take it as a good advice and some goes berserk and starts to hate you. I allways try to tell them in a nice way and give them hints, it doesn't allways work as i said though, you just gotta hope for the best.

[PvtCaboose]

I always tell people after the first boss, that if they are doing a bad job. I usually say something like "I don't want to sound like a dick, but your DPS is really low have you thought of trying <insert comment>" Usually it's talent or rotation based, there has been a couple times where a DK or Warrior is running around with spellpower gear and that's usually when that player had just hit 80.

[Nale]

I forgot how bad it is to pug until last night playing my warlock for two heroics. I did the daily heroic with some warrior tank with some craftable gear. He was sitting around 30k hp unbuffed and figured he would do just fine, it was about in line with where I was at with doing heroics before I started doing any sort of raiding on my warrior. Every pull was a fight to not get agro though. I searched the group more than once to see if he threw vigilance on anyone (was talented for it) and never saw it on anyone. Never cycled through the adds to gain agro and never did thunderclap and would waste shockwave on a single target in front of him instead of trying to pile the other two together and doing it.

Ended up wiping two or three times the whole thing and spent a little over an hour in H-HoL. At so many points I wanted to throw out a comment of something to do, even to do vigilance but didn't want to come across as a know it all ass, just because I know what it is like to be told from a different class how to play, cause you don't really know if they know wtf they are talking about. It's like the time before dual spec some tank in the guild told me to just go two handed weps on a fight to do dps while he was tanking and keep MS up.

[Mert]

If they're in crafted blues and stuff you can usually try asking if it's their main or their alt. It doesn't matter what they answer really but it's a nice lead-in to "grats on 80". From there you can say your main is a Prot Warrior and if they ever want any advice they should feel free to ask. If they respond well to that, chances are they'll be receptive to hints you give them mid-instance as well.

[Eravian]

I find the easiest way is to be friendly the whole time, even before any problems crop up. I find it's a lot more often that I get whispers like "Hmm... I think I'm holding you guys up" then me having to whisper people, and once they do that I can give them some advice or direction, particularly when it comes to tanking. But yeah, some people there's just not much you can do. If you do have to whisper them about something, make sure to start it off as either a general comment or a whisper, and approach them tactfully. Friendliness and nicety win 90% of the arguments before they start. Also, it can help to admit some mistakes of your own throughout the raid, or frame advice in the way of a new strategy, like "I think this time I'm going to do this different, would _______ (insert the under performer's name here) do this different to make up the difference?" Something like that. 75% of the time with a pug telling someone they're underperforming is going to create tension.

[Astemus]

The best in-game advice I ever got on any character was in a PUG. It was my first time tanking heroics in BC, and I got invited to another guild's run with 4 well geared people. I was a warrior in blues, and struggling to keep the mobs attacking me. This was the norm for me generally, fighting with DPS to keep threat. I was losing threat left and right with these guys. I was giving my all, and I think that it showed, because I got a kind whisper from the warlock saying that I should spam shield slam over anything else. Before this I was just stacking sunders to 5 and using revenge, occasionally shield slam when i could. After this, i realised there was a right way and a wrong way to play, and that simple kind tell from a warlock who was most likely very frustrated with my performance propelled me to seek the right way.

Come to think of it, that was when I found this site, and registered to read the forums for tips.