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Thread: Unidentifiable Organ. Nifty new trinket in ICC

  1. #61
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    Indeed, class considerations are pretty important here. Warriors, with their low Stamina multiplier and low Armor values can really get a lot out of Bonus Armor items. They are very powerful for us compared to alternatives.

    However, Stamina is really, really good for Bears. So, not too surprised that the value can go back and forth based on that.

    Martie makes a really good point and definitely is a large reason Armor is a nice stat, especially at large values that give solid EH as well.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Of course, the reality won't come out that clean, since in reality you'll get hit 5 times in 10 seconds sometimes and 1 time in 10 seconds other times, so that significantly increases the real risk of dropping the buff.

    I've been looking at this trinket and argueing with my tanks over it's value for a while. The non-heroic version is 24 stam and ~1900 armor, but i think it's awesome.

    What some of you are missing (and you are all better tanks than me, so dont' think i'm hating) is that the buff ONLY REQUIRES you to be hit ONCE in a 10 second timeframe to keep the buff refreshed. My tanks never go 10 seconds without getting hit at least once. Maybe you guys do.

    The only question really is how long it takes to get to a 10 stack. IMO, this trinket rocks.

  3. #63
    What some of you are missing (and you are all better tanks than me, so dont' think i'm hating) is that the buff ONLY REQUIRES you to be hit ONCE in a 10 second timeframe to keep the buff refreshed. My tanks never go 10 seconds without getting hit at least once. Maybe you guys do.
    It's only a 60% chance on hit. So it's not just "get hit once every 10 seconds".

    However, even with the 60% chance, if you were just face tanking every fight it'd be ok. It's the tank-swapping, lots-of-moving, occasional-downtime stuff in ICC that gets it in question.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It's only a 60% chance on hit. So it's not just "get hit once every 10 seconds".

    However, even with the 60% chance, if you were just face tanking every fight it'd be ok. It's the tank-swapping, lots-of-moving, occasional-downtime stuff in ICC that gets it in question.
    So it is not as effective while I have swapped out with my bear buddy... but it becomes as effective when I take agro back and am being smacked in the face. well that's how I look at it anyway. I do not care so much about what is happening when I am not taking the big hits, just when I am. note I do not have this trinky yet... I am looking forward to it dropping though.. although almost anything could replace the black heart I am running with now soo.

  5. #65
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    I am curious though why it's ok for dps to get trinkets that stack 100% every time they attack and stay stacked as long as they attack but not for tanks to atleast get something that's guaranteed to stack when you get hit.

    In my opinion they should have made this one 100% guaranteed to stack when the tank attacks. Just to let the tank be in charge of something aswell. Having armor proccs on rings, needing to get hit to get rage, damage shield, it's just all reactive. Atleast let me have a trinket I can stack myself.

  6. #66
    They seem to be trying to get tanks away from the 100%-reliable EH idea with a lot of the newer items. (Well, a few. Not a lot.)

    They've said before they don't entirely like the idea of tanks just stacking and stacking to get one big EH number. So who knows.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharr View Post
    I am curious though why it's ok for dps to get trinkets that stack 100% every time they attack and stay stacked as long as they attack but not for tanks to atleast get something that's guaranteed to stack when you get hit.

    In my opinion they should have made this one 100% guaranteed to stack when the tank attacks. Just to let the tank be in charge of something aswell. Having armor proccs on rings, needing to get hit to get rage, damage shield, it's just all reactive. Atleast let me have a trinket I can stack myself.
    Because it's not supposed to be a no-brainer best in slot in 99.5% of all situations since it would be on 10 stacks whenever you tank something. With 100% proc chance, the stamina bonus would have to be way smaller, but in this case, that is simply not the design.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    One of the reasons I like the armor on it so much is due to an oft-overlooked aspect of armor on EH, namely the empowering of healing.

    It makes perfect sense in my mind, but it may be tricky to explain. I'll use an example with numbers tinkered to easily fit (not realistic, of course, but it should illustrate what I mean.)

    We have a tank with 50k health and 50% armor damage reduction, putting him at 100k EH. When he gets healed for 1000 health, it heals him for 2000 effective health, or 2% of his total.
    Now, if we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely stamina, the heal will remain at 2000 EH, now healing him for 1.82% of his total. If we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely armor, the heal will remain at 2%, now healing him for 2200 EH.
    In short, if you compare the two, they will have equal EH, but the heals on the armorguy will be 21% more effective.

    I know healing gained doesn't usually get factored in when calculating EH, but with healing getting as intense as it is, I think we should consider the fact that armor-EH is a lot easier to heal then stamina-EH.
    Also the more armor you have, the more effective the stamina you have is. Armor is gud.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    ^ This, but with only 2 stacks, 175 + 48 = 223 stam. At 3 stacks it's the best EHP trinket in the game, and at 10 stacks it's just f***ing absurd.
    That's the problem though. Without those stacks it's worse then dual stam trinkets. And there's no guarantee you'll have any stacks up when you need it. It probably won't make or break a fight if you have 0 or 10 stacks, but do you really want to gamble it'll be up when you need it?

    So I'm still curious why dps can get something that is guaranteed to stack while tanks have to first roll if they get hit and then roll again to see if it even proccs? Though I don't think anyone on this forum can answer that so it's probably a pointless question.
    Last edited by Tharr; 01-19-2010 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharr View Post
    That's the problem though. Without those stacks it's worse then dual stam trinkets. And there's no guarantee you'll have any stacks up when you need it. It probably won't make or break a fight if you have 0 or 10 stacks, but do you really want to gamble it'll be up when you need it?

    So I'm still curious why dps can get something that is guaranteed to stack while tanks have to first roll if they get hit and then roll again to see if it even proccs? Though I don't think anyone on this forum can answer that so it's probably a pointless question.
    So what you're saying is it's almost as good as N-JV with zero stacks, and the majority of the time (I think like 93% of the time there will at least be 1 stack) it's better... so... what's your problem with the trinket? Also armor > stam if equal or close to equal in EHP.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Also armor > stam if equal or close to equal in EHP.
    That's nothing new and I'll probably end up using this trinket. Even if it's slightly worse then N-JV the difference is probably to small to be noticed while making the healers job that much easier.

    My problem isn't so much with the trinket as it is with Blizzard at the moment. They kept saying from the start they couldn't give us perfectly itemised gear because they wanted to save that for the last instance. Now we have the last instance and I just don't see where that perfectly itemised gear is. Maybe it was just my expectations that was to high.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharr View Post
    So I'm still curious why dps can get something that is guaranteed to stack while tanks have to first roll if they get hit and then roll again to see if it even proccs? Though I don't think anyone on this forum can answer that so it's probably a pointless question.
    Several reasons:

    1. A 60% chance on hit for a DPS is probably going to be close to 99% uptime. My main nuke on my caster is at 1.5 seconds already with the amount of haste I have, so it would have to be lower than that to have any risk of falling off. Also, dual wield melee hit a lot faster than 2Her melee--DW melee would never drop a stack unless the chance was so low 2Her melee could never stack it.

    2. If they made it lower than that, they would need to increase the bonus it provides. Let's take Muradin's Spyglass; 180 stacked damage vs. something like 360 or more if it only stacked 25% of the time. That would get very bursty. (Even with 25% chance, I suspect it will have at least 80% uptime for my mage)

    3. Burst is bad for PvP.

    TL;DR answer: PvP

  13. #73
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    I wish instead of chance on being hit to chance on hit. This way it doesn't require us to be hit and stacks could be manage better. It would be able to be kept up on the off tank by his attacking and by the current tank. Getting hit cap isn't the issue its just when the tank wants more EH or Armor EH the hit rating isn't on the gear which could mean less uptime for the buff if they stack the armor or EH gear. Most tanks are rolling around 5% hit give or take and isn't focused as much because of us wanting a bigger HP.

    So IMO making it a chance on being hit just puts it as a variable amount of up time. The armor is nice and lowers the proc to stack some but really chance in being hit when there are times tanks no dmg for 10s sometimes... All the dps trinkets on chance on hit and not being hit this one just seems like a wording issue to me. Remove the "being" hit part and you got a decent trinket that any tank would want even at any rate of applying % up time.

  14. #74
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    Making it chance on hit would increase the uptime dramatically regardless of how much hit/exp you stack. On high rage fights you'll be landing attacks every half second or so, it would build up and stay up the whole time even on taunt switch fights like LDW, SF and FG.
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  15. #75
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    If thatís the case then put it to chance on melee hit to off set the timer. The lowest speed is a warrior around at 1.6 and with lust it can get to around 1s. But I think even that is spliting hairs some from .5 to 1s isn't going to change the uptime. The other tought here is instead of on hit or being hit to put it to a precentage of HP. So any time you drop to below say 60% you get a stack that only refreshes if you drop below that again within 15s. The case here though is whats the chance they would even change this? Its very slim at best that blizzard will change it just so we can get more HP which they already don't like us doing.

    I truely think thats why they made it being on hit verse anything else. IMO trinkets have been and problemly always will be the filler items to the encounters. If you need more armor and a little more HP use this verse use this all the time. I know as I tank I usually got at least 2-5 trinkets in my bags for fights that it may help on but others might not.

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