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Thread: Unidentifiable Organ. Nifty new trinket in ICC

  1. #41
    seems like every guild i know had one of these drop on their first kill, i dammit LOST the roll lol, now watch it NEVER drop again,,, /wrists

    but are ppl so far forgetting that most likely it will drop off simply due to tanks switching

    marrowgar whirlwinds i dodge/miss/parry alot probably falls off

    deathwhisper have to taunt after each what 3 debuffs, will fall off

    gunship, will fall off

    saurfang will fall off every rune blood

    festergutt will probably fall off every time he stops to inhale and doesnt attack you.

    rotface should stay up, but could fall off when u run him to the outside of the room when blob explodes

    putricide should stay up, but is going to fall off when he does the stun..

    and every other fight in ICC has some sort of tank swap or phases where they fly up or do something odd...

  2. #42
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    Don't get tunnel vision focusing on the proc. While it is nice on a very heavy physical fight the 1890 armor is what's really nice. In most cases the proc is the icing not the cake.

  3. #43
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    but are ppl so far forgetting that most likely it will drop off simply due to tanks switching
    marrowgar - hardly important in non-heroic, how often are you using the glyph cooldown when it's needed where this won't be useful?

    deathwhisper - again, hardly a difficult fight in non-heroic as long as the interrupts are on key and you don't stand in lol and decay

    gunship - do you really care? if you're jumping over you won't be there long enough (sans achievement that is) to where it will even stack up to 5. if you are doing the achievement it will stay up as long as you need it

    saurfang will fall off every rune blood - true, will stack back up too. no reason to not carry other trinkets

    festergutt will probably fall off every time he stops to inhale and doesnt attack you. - he doesn't stop hitting you for 10 seconds unless taunted. no boss does anything like that.

    rotface - will be up the entire fight, even if you kite him

    putricide should stay up, but is going to fall off when he does the stun.. - i'm not sure how long tear gas lasts, but i'll let you know after tonight

    and every other fight in ICC has some sort of tank swap or phases where they fly up or do something odd...
    And when you see those fights feel free to report.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoso View Post
    Don't get tunnel vision focusing on the proc. While it is nice on a very heavy physical fight the 1890 armor is what's really nice. In most cases the proc is the icing not the cake.
    The proc is what really seperates it from the other trinkets, in pure EH 1890 armor is worth only around 170-175 stamina making the proc make or break it.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by krc View Post
    The proc is what really seperates it from the other trinkets, in pure EH 1890 armor is worth only around 170-175 stamina making the proc make or break it.
    ^ This, but with only 2 stacks, 175 + 48 = 223 stam. At 3 stacks it's the best EHP trinket in the game, and at 10 stacks it's just f***ing absurd.
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  6. #46
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    Yea, I was exaggerating a little bit but Agga is right 3 stacks is what makes it $$$. So far from playing around in heroics today it seems to hover around 4 stacks ( Running a set tuned for 5mans 64.48% Avoid including block). Hopefully gonna clear ToGC25 in an hour or so but all in all so far I'm pretty pleased with the trinket.

  7. #47
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    picked this up, got it stacked to 10 several times, but agreed, probably averages out around 2-3 stacks, which is good enough for me! can finally put away black heart! ;P

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  8. #48
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    Well, the uptime for this has already been modeled in another thread and everything from the data confirms the model... so we don't really need to re-model it every week or so.

    Given the average uptime on basically any boss in ICC, it is the best EH trinket currently known or available. That's all there is to it, really.
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  9. #49
    Getting a lot of conflicting info on the average stack uptime, people who have it on Maintankadin and other sites are reporting absolutely abysmal amounts of stamina from it.

    Granted, the armor is great, but from a bear perspective with our stupidly high reliance on stamina, I'm still a little wary of this thing. =/

  10. #50
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    The average uptime should be around 4.something stacks in most cases. That's more than enough to make it the best EH trinket when combined with the Armor.

    This is for Warriors, though, so it could be slightly different for Druids but as Armor's EH value scales with Health and Druids have tons of Health, I wouldn't imagine it being much different results unless you are already Armor-capped.

    However, based on the numbers I've seen, unless you are Armor-capped it should be the best EH trinket regardless of class. It does not actually need high average stacks to reach this classification.

    If you are doing a magical damage fight where the Armor isn't very valuable, you'll probably be better off with Sindragosa's Fang--but considering the Use: effect on it, that was kinda a no-brainer anyway.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    The average uptime should be around 4.something stacks in most cases. That's more than enough to make it the best EH trinket when combined with the Armor.
    It will never have a 4stack for more then 10 seconds, so this 'average' thing is actually the case relatively little during the raid.

    "Average uptime" is a really dangerous thing to use here, especially if you consider it over an entire raid in ICC and the way those fights work. What I want to know is the chance for the stack to fall off when I'm tanking Festergut when he's 3stack bloated, or the chance for it to fall off when I'm tanking putricide in p3. When I'm not tanking them, it'll fall off, no surprise there.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    It will never have a 4stack for more then 10 seconds, so this 'average' thing is actually the case relatively little during the raid.

    "Average uptime" is a really dangerous thing to use here, especially if you consider it over an entire raid in ICC and the way those fights work. What I want to know is the chance for the stack to fall off when I'm tanking Festergut when he's 3stack bloated, or the chance for it to fall off when I'm tanking putricide in p3. When I'm not tanking them, it'll fall off, no surprise there.
    What exactly do you base this statement on it 'never' having a 4 stack for more than 10 seconds? Some fights, sure, but certainly not all fights.

    The 4-ish stack is the true statistical average in most cases, meaning sometimes it will be lower and sometimes it will be higher. It takes into account the chance of it falling off early and the restack time.

    The thing that people in this thread are trying to get across is the simple fact that with the huge amount of armor on it, it really barely needs to stack at all to be equal to or better than any other EH trinket in the game for a physical fight.

    You can do the math for yourself, if you want, but with the average stack it's miles ahead of everything else. It probably only needs 1-2 stacks to exceed the other trickets.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    What exactly do you base this statement on it 'never' having a 4 stack for more than 10 seconds? Some fights, sure, but certainly not all fights.
    In ten seconds, it will either drop off or have been upped to five.

    The 4-ish stack is the true statistical average in most cases, meaning sometimes it will be lower and sometimes it will be higher. It takes into account the chance of it falling off early and the restack time.
    In what situations? Looking at it over an entire raid, with the way fights go, is pointless to me. I want to know it's chances of being active when I need it most.

    The thing that people in this thread are trying to get across is the simple fact that with the huge amount of armor on it, it really barely needs to stack at all to be equal to or better than any other EH trinket in the game for a physical fight.
    I think I said something to this extent when the item was first mentioned here.

    You can do the math for yourself, if you want, but with the average stack it's miles ahead of everything else. It probably only needs 1-2 stacks to exceed the other trickets.
    Again with the average stack. Average stack is very dangerous here - if you count on it being up to four at all times, you'll be sorely dissappointed.
    (An average stack of four could mean that it gets bumped to a 10stack in the first ten seconds of the fight, then it stays at a 10stack for 10 seconds, then it falls off and isn't procced again for 17 seconds, with that cycle repeating. Fact is, it won't be 4stacked most of the time.)
    Last edited by Martie; 01-19-2010 at 10:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  14. #54
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    I'm trying to figure out why you glanced over the fact that it only really requires low amounts of stacks to be good.

    To quote Aggathon's post
    Source: krc
    The proc is what really seperates it from the other trinkets, in pure EH 1890 armor is worth only around 170-175 stamina making the proc make or break it.

    ^ This, but with only 2 stacks, 175 + 48 = 223 stam. At 3 stacks it's the best EHP trinket in the game, and at 10 stacks it's just f***ing absurd.
    ...which is pretty much accurate.
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  15. #55
    I'm pretty much at the point where - in ICC at least - I'm just ignoring the proc altogether and counting it as an armor trinket.

    Really, looking at all the fights that are really challenging for the tanks (And even ones that aren't) you usually have so little time to get the stacks up and so much time to have them drop.

    There's just no way to effectively model that into a reliable amount of survival, and much like my objections to The Black Heart, I just hate things that work in that way.

    1890 armor all by itself is still pretty darn grand, though, so you'll still want to pick this thing up.

  16. #56
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    Here's my breakdown of the fights I'll use it on:

    Marrowgar - while being hit decently frequently and since this is a mostly physical fight, I'll use UO and H-Jug's Vit (H-JV). UO's base armor is just barely worse than normal Jug's Vit (N-JV), so much so that it's almost negligible and it passes it at one stack.

    Deathwhisper - the melee here isn't really the concern, armor loses its value here and you really need to just survive incase a frost bolt does get off. I'd use dual Jug's here

    Gunship - If doing on a boat, I'd use double Jug's since the ranged damage is bleed based, if doing it normal I'd use avoidance trinkets, probably ony and eitrigg's oath (/obligatory vomit here).

    Saurfang - Again, physical fight, I'd use H-JV and UO, even if the stacks fall off, I only need 1 for it to be better than N-JV

    Festergut - definitely use H-JV and UO, you tank for 90 seconds at a time, the tank swaps are not frequent, therefore UO becomes very useful.

    Rotface - again, tanking the whole time, lots of physical damage, I think UO wins out again here.

    Putricide - the first night of real attempts on him I accidentally didn't debuff him before the 35% tear gas, the debuffs fell off, and he came back and 2 shot me with physical damage, imo this is another stack EHP fight, I'd use UO and H-JV

    Having not done the blood wing yet, I refuse to comment on what I would use, I'll start out in EHP gear, but I also don't have UO yet /tear.


    Edit: Kojiyama and I seem to rarely agree on things. Chances are when we do, we're right =P
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  17. #57
    UO's base armor is just barely worse than normal Jug's Vit (N-JV), so much so that it's almost negligible and it passes it at one stack.
    This is an important part of the discussion...while the armor/HP conversion might be that way for a warrior, it's significantly different for a bear.

    Festergut - definitely use H-JV and UO, you tank for 90 seconds at a time, the tank swaps are not frequent, therefore UO becomes very useful.
    What's important to me here is WHEN the tank swaps happen. For example, if you're tanking him first, you'll get to 9 stacks part way through the second inhale...so you're really never in a position to be truly threatened. If you're the second tank, you're taunting for part of the second inhale and all of the third and you'll have zero stacks and are unlikely to get very many before the bloat comes and you're back to really not being in danger at all.

    Rotface is a definate go for the UO, but it also really doesn't challenge the tank, either.

    Of course, like I said, the armor alone makes it pretty good. So I'm not knocking on it. And things are a little different from a bears point of view when comparing armor and stamina.

    I'll probably still end up just using it. =O

  18. #58
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    One of the reasons I like the armor on it so much is due to an oft-overlooked aspect of armor on EH, namely the empowering of healing.

    It makes perfect sense in my mind, but it may be tricky to explain. I'll use an example with numbers tinkered to easily fit (not realistic, of course, but it should illustrate what I mean.)

    We have a tank with 50k health and 50% armor damage reduction, putting him at 100k EH. When he gets healed for 1000 health, it heals him for 2000 effective health, or 2% of his total.
    Now, if we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely stamina, the heal will remain at 2000 EH, now healing him for 1.82% of his total. If we increase the EH to 110k by adding purely armor, the heal will remain at 2%, now healing him for 2200 EH.
    In short, if you compare the two, they will have equal EH, but the heals on the armorguy will be 21% more effective.

    I know healing gained doesn't usually get factored in when calculating EH, but with healing getting as intense as it is, I think we should consider the fact that armor-EH is a lot easier to heal then stamina-EH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
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  19. #59
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    Martie, that's probably one of the best points that's been brought up so far. Thanks for posting.
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  20. #60
    No doubt about it, Martie.

    I kinda wish they'd nerf Bear stamina scaling already. I'd much rather be wearing Glyph/Organ over double Juggernaut, but...ugh...just not a lot of incentive to do so it seems.

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