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Thread: Gear Check / Hard mode 10 TOC

  1. #1
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    Gear Check / Hard mode 10 TOC

    my armory: WoW Armory Alternative - Nameless Armory Profiles.

    my toon name is: Amaz°n on hakkar realm US servers... some reason my funny o messes up in tank spots post box

    im not sure as to what my problem is maybe its my spec, or if its just the heals, but i drop. this is the first boss in heroic toc. i was tanking this the other night with a pally, who seemed would never die, and i would just die constantly. he had a little more hp then me, but my mitigation stats were rougly 2% better then his including his libram. we got to phase 3 a few times, and few people died to the charge, but shield wall up fast and was able to keep tanking it fine... anyone have any suggestions? I do drop about 3% dodge when tanking that fight just for more hp, and end up around 41000 unbuffed... any comments greatly appreciated.



    Thanks,

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    Gormok the Impaler simply can kill a tank in like 2 seconds no problem if you don't manage the fight well (see the weekly Frodo, I mean weekly Marmot episode 2). Lore is talking about Chill of the Throne and the reason for it and basically hints at how obscene damage can spike to now because they increased damage to compensate for avoidance.

    Paladins have a two advantages on Gormok in particular. One, they can use Hand of Protection to shed the debuff where as a warrior will have to either endure it or have a separate pally do it for them. Also, paladins have Ardent Defender, aka, cheat death for tanks. They could potentially be taking enough damage to die, but have an ability which procs and saves them. As a warrior, you don't have that.

    You need to look at the combat log parses to find out what is really happening, or at least check your death reports from an addon like recount. If its a matter of you took a lot of damage over 4 seconds and got no heals, that's a healer problem. If it is simply you took 70,000 damage in two seconds, healers simply can't heal that fast.

    Something you should probably consider doing is tanking for fewer stacks of impale and letting the other tank go higher in stacks than you go (i.e. you take 2, he takes 3). I've had paladin tanks able to go as high as 5 stacks and seen warrior tanks instant gibbed at 2. Though likely the result of other issues it's been my general observation that a paladin and sometimes a druid tank can take one stack higher of impale than the other tanking classes.

    *edit* Looking at your general gear rating on wow-heroes, gear wise you are easily capable of tanking ToGC on 10 man. With that in mind the problem is likely something else like proper execution or healing. If you have combat log parses that would be very helpful in determining what is going wrong for you.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 11-19-2009 at 11:53 AM.

  3. #3
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    Your gear is more than fine for the encounter, though I'd switch out that Eitrigg's Oath for a Black Heart or Heart of Iron, or Glyph of Indomitability.

    Can't see your spec on that profile you linked, except the numbers. It's a little odd from the look of it, not a standard point distribution, but I'd have to actually see how you spent them to know for sure, and I'm too lazy/at work to look up your real armory right now.

    Basically, if you're dying to Gormok, there's a tank rotation problem, a healing problem, or a cooldown usage problem.

  4. #4
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    Looking at your gear, you should be more than capable of tanking ten man togc.

    I'd ditch that dodge trinket - its a nice trinket but its not helping you on the impale ticks at all. Gormok is about stacking stam, stam and more stam. If a bleed ticks at the same time as an impale, or melee blow lands, you want to have as much of a health margin as you can so stam trinkets (black heart, heart of iron, etc) would be better than dodge, even with the armor proc.

    Also, your gems - there's a reason most of us are ignoring socket bonuses - you've effectively left 780 health on the table right there. Also, why are you gemming for defense when you are well over your defense minimum?

    When you say the first boss in ToGC - do you mean Gormok? If its Gormok, when are you dying? How many stacks are you taking and when are you using your cooldowns?

    Are you using indestructable pots? Are you aggressively using cooldowns to buffer impales? Are you running out of stomp range when you are not the active tank?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff View Post
    Looking at your gear, you should be more than capable of tanking ten man togc.

    I'd ditch that dodge trinket - its a nice trinket but its not helping you on the impale ticks at all. Gormok is about stacking stam, stam and more stam. If a bleed ticks at the same time as an impale, or melee blow lands, you want to have as much of a health margin as you can so stam trinkets (black heart, heart of iron, etc) would be better than dodge, even with the armor proc.

    Tanking that fight i switch out my trinket for the brewfest 1 actually the 1 with rediculous stam i think its 192 or something,

    Also, your gems - there's a reason most of us are ignoring socket bonuses - you've effectively left 780 health on the table right there. Also, why are you gemming for defense when you are well over your defense minimum?

    Personally i like going for the socket bonus when there was no clear cutt right answer stam > Mit Mit > stam socket bonus was just easier for me... Gemming defense, was for the gem color prefrence, i could have went stam hit, but my threat is never an issue and my expertise is fine, also defense straight up inadverntantly buffs mit stats. is the 780 health worth losing mitigation? i really dont know, but this is the first fight for me where i really feel like im squishy

    When you say the first boss in ToGC - do you mean Gormok? If its Gormok, when are you dying? How many stacks are you taking and when are you using your cooldowns?

    Yes i mean gormok, as of yesterday attempts the rotation pretty much went like this... pally picked up first, 2 debuffs, swap... i picked up, popped juggarnaut vitality at first debuff, second debuff called it out tank swap repeat i taunt back, first impale indestructible pot, 2nd impale tank swap, same rotation for most of the night, i would die ranging from either 1 stack and a snowbald (spelling?) or 2 stacks just get thrashed im not one to blame healers because i used to be 1 but we were rolling in there with 3 heals i know plenty of guilds rolling only 2.

    Are you using indestructable pots? Are you aggressively using cooldowns to buffer impales? Are you running out of stomp range when you are not the active tank?
    And no, im not running out of the stomp range, didnt know this effected anything but taking a little damage

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    Yes i mean gormok, as of yesterday attempts the rotation pretty much went like this... pally picked up first, 2 debuffs, swap... i picked up, popped juggarnaut vitality at first debuff, second debuff called it out tank swap repeat i taunt back, first impale indestructible pot, 2nd impale tank swap, same rotation for most of the night, i would die ranging from either 1 stack and a snowbald (spelling?) or 2 stacks just get thrashed im not one to blame healers because i used to be 1 but we were rolling in there with 3 heals i know plenty of guilds rolling only 2.
    Try this:

    1. Active the encounter - when you hear Tirion say 'battle on heroes' pop an indie pot - if you do it before combat engages, you'll be able to use a second one during the fight for a total of 4 minutes uptime.

    2. Pally taunts and takes three stacks of impale - stack your sunders and demo/thunderclap the boss.

    3. After the third imaple lands on your poor pally comrade, pop your trinket, hit shield block and taunt - take two stacks and let the pally taunt. Keep debuffs up.

    4. When pally has two stacks, taunt. Wait until impale is about to hit, pop shield block, then last stand/enraged regen. When your indie pot runs out, pop a new one.

    5. Rinse and repeat except use shield wall for your next CD. If you need to, arrange for one of your healers to be using their damage reduction cooldowns on you to protect against the imaples.

    If Gormok is still alive and kicking at this point, you'll probably be up to your eyeballs in worms and contemplating a run-back from the graveyard in the very near future.

    Its also important to announce your taunts on vent. Let your healers know you're going to do it a couple of seconds before you actually do to let them shift healing to you.

    And no, im not running out of the stomp range, didnt know this effected anything but taking a little damage
    Its not that much damage, but when your healers aren't paying as much attention to you because you're not the active tank, a stomp that hits at the same time as a 2-3 stack imaple tick can be troublesome.
    Last edited by Griff; 11-19-2009 at 12:33 PM.

  7. #7
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    Are your ranged and healers standing in fires too much? A heal that went to ranged and could have went to yourself could result in your death.

    Are healers getting snobolds and not having them killed off quickly enough? If your healer can't heal, you don't get healed.

    Is it a melee heavy, ranged heavy, or relatively balanced raid? If you're all in melee range, healers are constantly running out of fires instead of casting heals on you.

    What type of healers are you running with?

    Healing problems are hard to diagnose without a combat log parse.


    Try having the paladin tank first, and have them go for one higher stack of the impale debuff. They have more ways out of the debuff with both Divine Shield and Hand of Protection and Forbearance is two minutes and they can likely drop both the first and the last stack of the debuff.

    Bare in mind as well as the phase progresses, Gormok's damage increases by 15% for each snobold he throws. You can normally tank more stacks of impale at the start of the fight than you can at the end.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff View Post
    Try this:

    1. Active the encounter - when you hear Tirion say 'battle on heroes' pop an indie pot - if you do it before combat engages, you'll be able to use a second one during the fight for a total of 4 minutes uptime.

    2. Pally taunts and takes three stacks of impale - stack your sunders and demo/thunderclap the boss.

    3. After the third imaple lands on your poor pally comrade, pop your trinket, hit shield block and taunt - take two stacks and let the pally taunt. Keep debuffs up.

    4. When pally has two stacks, taunt. Wait until impale is about to hit, pop shield block, then last stand/enraged regen. When your indie pot runs out, pop a new one.

    5. Rinse and repeat except use shield wall for your next CD. If you need to, arrange for one of your healers to be using their damage reduction cooldowns on you to protect against the imaples.

    If Gormok is still alive and kicking at this point, you'll probably be up to your eyeballs in worms and contemplating a run-back from the graveyard in the very near future.

    Its also important to announce your taunts on vent. Let your healers know you're going to do it a couple of seconds before you actually do to let them shift healing to you.



    Its not that much damage, but when your healers aren't paying as much attention to you because you're not the active tank, a stomp that hits at the same time as a 2-3 stack imaple tick can be troublesome.

    will do thanks for the advice, what was your input on my question about the 780 health > the mitigation

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Are your ranged and healers standing in fires too much? A heal that went to ranged and could have went to yourself could result in your death.

    Are healers getting snobolds and not having them killed off quickly enough? If your healer can't heal, you don't get healed.

    Is it a melee heavy, ranged heavy, or relatively balanced raid? If you're all in melee range, healers are constantly running out of fires instead of casting heals on you.

    What type of healers are you running with?

    Healing problems are hard to diagnose without a combat log parse.


    Try having the paladin tank first, and have them go for one higher stack of the impale debuff. They have more ways out of the debuff with both Divine Shield and Hand of Protection and Forbearance is two minutes and they can likely drop both the first and the last stack of the debuff.

    Bare in mind as well as the phase progresses, Gormok's damage increases by 15% for each snobold he throws. You can normally tank more stacks of impale at the start of the fight than you can at the end.

    holy priest disc priest and a shammy at the time
    ranging from 2.3k - 3.9k hps

  10. #10
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    will do thanks for the advice, what was your input on my question about the 780 health > the mitigation
    Firstly, those gems aren't providing you with any mitigation. Parry and dodge are avoidance. Avoidance in and of itself isn't a bad thing and for most encounters, 780 health probably isn't going to make or break you. The difference here is that most of gormok's shenanigans cannot be avoided. You can't dodge or parry impale and avoidance won't help you at all on the damage from the bleeds and it offers only RNG protection against his regular melee.

    You're going to take a ton of damage in this encounter and making sure that damage you do take is as small a percentage of your total health as you can is the most reliable way to survive the fight.

  11. #11
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    Actually, the more I think about it and try to remember when we were first learning it on hard mode, I think your problem could actually be the dps. When we first hit hard mode dps was able to handle maybe three snobolds and if we had to kill four we wouldn't have Gormok down before the Jormungars. Last week on our first Tribute to Insanity we had all of the snobolds hit our top healer and we kept killing them fast enough so he ended up throwing them at the same person, and still killed him like a minute before the Jormungars would automatical spawn.

    My guess would be as a new raid you are at this point right now where you sort of have a quota to how much dps you can put out and how quickly you can deal with the target switches. You might not be able to kill the snobolds fast enough, particularly when they are on a healer and as a result, people (often the tanks) die from insufficient healing.

    This week I think he only managed to throw two snobolds because of how much higher dps is now. The fight does get much easier very quickly once you start geting the better itemized gear from heroic difficulty.

    You may need to work on your efficiency in killing snobolds, in particular when they are on healers. If you have to pull more dps off the boss to do this, it might help overall. If you only run with 1 or 2 ranged dps and say just leave the snobolds to ranged, that might not be enough.

  12. #12
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    You may need to work on your efficiency in killing snobolds, in particular when they are on healers. If you have to pull more dps off the boss to do this, it might help overall. If you only run with 1 or 2 ranged dps and say just leave the snobolds to ranged, that might not be enough.
    Snobolds need to die and fast. We have our hunter officer in the tank tool in ora2 so that people can easily target off of him. He decides snowbold kill order. We also have any non-melee with snobolds run to a designated spot. This serves two purposes: it gets them away from the healers so as not to stun them and it also makes it easier for dps assigned to snobold killing know exactly where to look.

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    Just wandering, I have similar gear as you have and notice that you only have 47 hit rating. Do you have problem taunting Gormok when its your turn cause I have like 120 hit rating and I sometime have a lot of problem getting his attention after the pally has been tanking him for 2 stacks.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker76 View Post
    Just wandering, I have similar gear as you have and notice that you only have 47 hit rating. Do you have problem taunting Gormok when its your turn cause I have like 120 hit rating and I sometime have a lot of problem getting his attention after the pally has been tanking him for 2 stacks.

    Thanks
    Doesn't sound like this is a problem for this particular tank, but if it is:

    Use vigilence on the other tank for plenty of taunt refreshes, provided the other tank doesn't have threat issues.

    If you miss you can use challenging shout instead since he is a warrior, though likely just once.

    If missing is a problem, you can also swap glyphs for the particular fight. Since this is hard mode it's not uncommon to use a glyph change for particular fights. Raids doing hard modes generally can afford to do tweaks here and there to make hard modes easier.

  15. #15
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    I always carry a few stacks of different glyphs and taunt is one that I always use for heroic NRB. A missed taunt can definitely cause a wipe here so its best to be safe imho. Threat, generally, is not a critical issue on Gormok.

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