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Thread: Icecrown Gated Progression

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I rather imagine the first several bosses will be easy, and it will get more difficult as we move through. Like in Ulduar, the Siege bosses went down fast as you could blink even to PuGs very early on. Not nearly so many people could take on the keepers in the first few weeks.
    That isn't the Ulduar I remember. The Siege was pretty tough starting out. Oh , we cleared FL fairly quickly. Ignis was another question. Shoot there was a guild on our server that did the "Boss Screenshot" for clearing the Ravagers (Ignis Fire Whirlwind Trash mobs). Razor wasn't too bad, but XT took some time, especially with both trash packs coming at once.
    Last edited by Honorshammer; 11-19-2009 at 01:49 PM. Reason: remind you what the Ravagers were

  2. #62
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    "The Lich King may not be attempted until Professor Putricide, Blood-Queen Lana'thel, and Sindragosa are defeated. Furthermore, the Heroic difficulty of The Lich King encounter may not be attempted in any week unless the three aforementioned encounters have been defeated in Heroic difficulty that week."

    The way that's worded makes me wonder if you can't just enter whatever wing you want in Icecrown on Normal once it's unlocked... the fact that they say that you have to beat all three to fight Arthas, and you have to beat all three THAT WEEK to fight him on Heroic suggests to me that Arthas may be available so long as people have the achievement, much like an attunement.

    As for the gating, well... they can either gate it or they can delay release, most likely. People are already complaining that the patch hasn't hit yet, but they'll complain even more if they release the patch before it's ready and no one is able to down Arthas because he glitches out every time you fight him and despawns at 10%.

    It's also possible from the somewhat vague wording in the blue post that you get that many attempts per boss... time will tell. I think the biggest problem is, like someone else said, without actually knowing how a lot of this stuff is going to work, just going by the info on this post, it's hard to decide exactly how it's going to affect the community.

    And who knows, maybe their gating it and putting in a stacking buff over time because they've tuned it so that the first wing will take every ounce of what people have to progress past it with ToC loot, and without the stacking Ashen Verdict buff you can't clear the later wings. If that's the case, then you wouldn't be geared enough for Heroic mode with ToC gear anyway.

  3. #63
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    First, you don't have to have done ToGC to be waiting on Icecrown. There was sort of an implication that casuals aren't going to be there when the doors open. I don't think I'm terribly hardcore and I've got two characters that can handle current tier content. Not doing hard modes is more of a guild limitation than a personal one.

    Second, we've been doing five encounters in ToC for how long now? 45 minute clear of current raid content, and you're basically done for the week. I think most people would rather not just have four bosses to take out after that's basically what they have been doing for a while now.

    The limited boss attempts don't make things difficult, they make things annoying. As has already been pointed out, people get disconnected. That in itself is reason enough not to have limited normal attempts. But then there is the unnecessary guild drama that is going to occur. People screw up. Only instead of just wiping a raid and incurring some extra repair bills, it's now someone's fault if they run out of attempts.

    And lastly, Blizzard should have figured out by now to separate their class/ability changes and their new features from their content patches. That's another point that people have bitched about. My DK tank isn't just waiting on Icecrown, it's waiting on the 1h version of Stoneskin Gargoyle. My rogue was already waiting on some poison changes before the latest one. I'm sure that other classes that I don't play have something that they want.

    Since the class changes and cross server LFG stuff will probably break the game horribly, that should be done before rolling out a new raid, in whole or in part. Instead, including it with a large content patch is just going to exacerbate their usual patch problems and further piss people off. Especially when it drops people or the server goes down costing you boss attempts.

    TL;DR: If you're going to make a patch to tide people over, don't make it so obvious that that's what you're doing.

  4. #64
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    Systems development isn't as easy as "here's a fix, patch it in now".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  5. #65
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    They could possibly only count an attempt if you deal less then 50% damage to the boss. Thus unlucky disconnections would be less of a factor (though still might be, if you lag out in the final phases), and it would allow a few trial runs to work out mechanics before you do a serious attempt. I'd like that for normal, at least.

    With Hard Modes and achievements, disconnections have always been an issue. Immortal, Tribute to Insanity, etc. So I'd be harsher against this.

    But then I'd rather have no limit at all on normal attempts at all, as I stated before.

  6. #66
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    * More then 50% damage. Typo.

  7. #67
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    50% rules can be abused easily, i doubt that'd go in.

    I don't think the disconnect issue really holds ground. Everyone and their mom always complains about missing worlds first, server firsts, progression kills about this disconnect, or that disconnect. We've all had them, but Blizzard can't go forward with game development, by building around the fact that "people do d/c". They removed the Immortality and Insanity achievements because people complained about it. Fine, but to say the number of attempts is "zomg bad" is only a reaction because everyone fears 15 is too little, no one gave a crap when it was 50, they're trying to tune encounters to prevent people who just throw themselves against a boss all day from getting lucky RNG and winning the fight that way. Algalon was the first iteration of them trying to fix this problem, ToGC was their second iteration. Icecrown is their next step up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
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  8. #68
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    I'm pretty impressed with this post's mix of opinions...and it is much more civil than some other forums I visited today.

    The gate system, at a glance, bothered me a lot. I could see the anger of my good but not HC guild losing 3/5 of our attempts to DC/Lag/Unlucky boss hit. Luckily, there are bosses without a wipe counter and by the time all gates open (call it a month, give or take), there will be A LOT of bosses that can be killed without this restriction.

    On top of that, Blizzard intends to add attempts as people start clearing and buffing the raid. This will open it to casuals and make it very reasonable for all guilds. In my eyes, this is essentially giving the HC guilds their chance to shine and down big new bosses in 3 pulls and just makes the average raiding guilds wait a bit.

    Hey...I've got no problem backtracking to ToGC a night or two a week in shiney new purples...

  9. #69
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    Personally I think Blizzard has gotten it right with the slow introduction of ICC as they announced it. Especially with the limited tries on the wing bosses.

    With unlimited tries a lot of guilds would (almost) endlessly try and try wipe after wipe until they finally catch that lucky RNG try and defeat the boss. Someone said above that this system promotes proper preparing. Not only strategies but also gearwise.
    This is again a moment were a new tier of emblems becomes available for the players that dont have a full TOGC gear set yet (95% of the playerbase). This system gives room for the majority of players to gear up and prepare themselves.
    And the 0.5% that really wants to go for a world first can still do it. And most of you know that a postponed climax is usually a better one.

  10. #70
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    Well for any WoW player the Arthas fight should be the single greatest gaming experience ever. The things they're doing to slow the pace down should only serve to enhance the experience. Besides, we've got some serious holidays coming up...realistically I wouldn't want to see new content until late Jan/early Feb simply because raid rosters are going to be thin -- especially the Arthas fight.

    Besides, I really don't want to see top guilds one-shot things that were just released like four hours ago (again, like endisia did with the original wotlk content). I'd rather see an attunement process that takes months and is nearly impossible (Black Temple comes to mind).
    Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.

  11. #71
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    It`s still wrong blizzard decides how many time we can`t spend on this or that on such an limited amount. There is no "advantage" for fairness in first clear or it could be archived with less insulting methods. Maybe just 1 week look out for an instance, so the different patchday is accounted for, but thats more then enough.

    Funny this argument: "You can endlessy try... till you got lucky" paired with " you need efford more time..for preperation.." If a raid spend 5 hours clearing one boss, they spend alot of time learning the encounter too, so don`t they deserver to have a chance clearing the instance their way? This i noway an implication that time spent should make you clear it, just you CAN decide to spend more time to clear it.

    They are the disconnects comment, i wish i could say that D/Cs are our faults, but when i remember all the thorim D/Cs to arena start ugh... The next thing, all the "bring player, not the class" will mean less and less again, because you`ll only want risk attempts with A+ Setup.

    IF Blizzard needs more time to develop the other wings, so be it, but not at our costs! Then they need to suck it up and say, well, we didn`t make it yet, you have to wait a little.

    I got the feeling that most supporter are stroking theire ego with it because they proably on the safe side and will elevate compared to rest, but they way it is done through blizzard is wrong, because it`s not encounter desing which makes it hard (like BC/Classic) just limiting gameplay.

    This changes, especially the very limited normal modes try, need to go. Hardmodes, are something totally different.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post

    Without knowing this, I can't tell whether I am in favour of this or really really annoyed. If we get 4 TOC normal difficulty bosses in 2-3 weeks time and nothing more for another 2-3 weeks, I will be very disappointed. If there is at least some level of difficulty involved in defeating those 4 then I won't mind.

    i'd be hoping for a reasonable challenge at launch, something akin to ulduar at launch but without the buggy trash of XT or the monster that was ignis before all the nerfs (& fixes). The reason for this is that the instance is going to get progressively easier with the increasing raid-wide buff that is going to get introduced, so having something that "casuals" can't clear on day one well be no biggie.
    Xíanth <Valkyria>

  13. #73
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    We've got at least another month before 3.3

    World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Connecting Issue. Only since 3.3.0.

    Hi Alisperis,

    We only provide mirror links for full client patches. Background downloads do not count. You have around 1+ month to download this file so we're not really worried about your speed. :

  14. #74
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    I've been contemplating this system, and I think I like it. A lot.

    I think it has many values on many angles, bear with me.

    1.) Let's get this out of the way, for Blizzard it is a valuable development time move. If even the most hardcore of raiding organizations cannot clear ICC within a week of its release, that buys them time and lets the developers feel a sense of indirect gratification. It may not be because of their content, but at least months of their work wasn't overturned in a couple days.

    2.) It is a value to the 'world first' competition stage. For the initial wings and bosses it won't limit the speed at which people get bosses down, but it will make it so the stage is re-set with every gate opened. In other words if guilds A-E are competing and A blows through the first wing, and E gets stalled on one of the bosses, they have time to catch up and have a fresh run at it when wing #2 opens. Guild A won't like it very much, but guild E sure will appreciate the opportunity.

    Then on the same note, severely limiting attempts on the final bosses of wings creates another sort of competition filter. Some guilds can just shotgun a boss down, swarm it 50 times and eventually they get it, where as now, if they don't make the most of their attempts they can be blocked from succeeding first. The guild that makes the most of each attempt with careful inspection and planning will be the guild that takes that title. I may not be one of those guilds going for this sort of prestige, but I can appreciate this more than the guilds that play 24 hour days and just try to zerg every fight for the title.

    3.) Philosophically, I think this is really valuable for players enjoying the game. A lot of people get into the instant gratification mode. If they could just win it over night, they would, then they would lament how terrible the game is because they could do that. In gating, again, like #1, it's not the content that sets the ceiling on pacing. This means that even the most hardcore groups cannot win it all straight away, they have to wait. For content design that also leaves room for content to be accessible to lower levels of play. I know some 'hardcore' players would rather a back-breaking challenge, but if it caters to the top 5% like that, the bottom 60% can't get into it at all.

    4.) I like that there is not just a front-end limiter in the method, but a back-end encouragement too. It will be as hard as it is to get into, and the challenge can scale up pretty severely it seems for hard-mode accomplishment, but later in the expansion the instance will become more accessible still to the teams that have the most trouble.

    From a design concept, one of the guiding lights in WotLK was to make content available to more people who play the game. What fun is an expansion all about the Lich King if you never get to face him? Some may feel that it diminishes their prestige (now achievement dates are more meaningful than the achievement itself, something I'm am grateful for), but I think it's pretty selfish to want exclusive rights to the conclusion of the chapter of a story-based game.


    At any rate, I say good on you, Blizzard. I look forward to battling my way in!
    Let me be clear. I don't care much for world firsts, or powering through an encounter. My guild is a 3 night weekend guild, so we are hardly the most progressed on our server. We just downed heroic Northrend Beasts for the first time last night.

    We run into a problem each week even with our raiding schedule. It takes us all of two hours or so to clear normal 25 TotC. We'll spend the rest of the first night working in 25 TotGC. People do 10 man normal and heroic on their own time during the rest of the week. Ony also takes little time to clear. We reach this point where we *simply have nothing to do* for the rest of the week, and it is hard to get raiders to show up. At least we have TotGC up for sure even on the last day so we can do more attempts there. We had to give double DKP on our last raid night just to get people to show up. Its also hard to get people to want to go to Ulduar. People say the Keepers and such just aren't worth the time and wiping, since we're not as familiar with those fights anymore. Personally I'd love to go back there, I think it is one of the best instances they've made so far. But apparently people in my guild feel differently.

    We're hardly "brute-forcing" our way through TotGC - it took us weeks to reach a gear level where we even had a shot at it, we were really just perfecting our strategy.

    What I am afraid will happen is that Icecrown will be more of the same. We'll struggle to find something to do, and a lot of people will just get bored waiting for the next gate to drop and quit showing up, especially if we only get 5 attempts per week. We'll show up on Friday, get our 5 attempts in, and then what? Go do TotC/TotGC? We're sick of that place!

    It feels like Blizzard is putting an artificial limit on our play time. If we wanted parental controls, we'd turn the feature on.

  15. #75
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    Its pretty obvious that blizzard is doing this to keep us from clearing it in one week. I for one am not looking forward to clearing the same 4 bosses for "several weeks" (dont we do something boring like that already?). However, this is the last raid of WoTLK and, in the end, we will be thankful that they did pace it.

  16. #76
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    @Honorshammer

    i dont think that statement is correct, they say "about" and i would take that "about" seriously. It shouldnt be a month before this is ready. we have tested every boss but arthas (who wont be tested), and all of the 5 mans are ready and functioning perfectly. The only things that arnt on the PTR right now is the arthas encounter and the rest of the season 8 armor.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    Its pretty obvious that blizzard is doing this to keep us from clearing it in one week. I for one am not looking forward to clearing the same 4 bosses for "several weeks" (dont we do something boring like that already?). However, this is the last raid of WoTLK and, in the end, we will be thankful that they did pace it.
    If that's the case, then why the limited attempts? Are they trying to extend the life of TotC? Wish they'd done that for a place like *Ulduar*, which was a much better instance than TotC.

    Aren't we going to be clearing the same 4 Icecrown bosses for "several weeks" though? Because that's all that will be available for "several weeks".

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaneOSAK View Post
    If WoW was free it would be less of an arguement. You're paying for a service and they are now giving you limits on how you spend your time using it.


    I want to have the choice to raid 20 hours per week on new content, why cant i be allowed to do that? Is it unreasonable to want to spend my time on WoW however I want?
    ^ This was my reaction also.

    I can see that the gating system will have 2 completely opposite effects on me as GM/RL/Recruiter. It will take the pressure off as far as having a limited amount of bosses available, instead of a whole instance at once .... however, the limited number of attempts is going to put that pressure right back on.

    To explain futher, we're coming back from a month off raiding. What prompted going casual when my co-gm moved overseas was a complete lack of suitable recruits on my server, and me needing a break from the ugly side of wow. So I turned the guild casual since we lacked spare (experienced) RL's to take over, and I welcomed any raiders to move on with my recommendations as I couldn't promise when I'd be back. I'm lucky enough that our guildies love the place so much they came flocking back from their 'holiday' guilds the second I said I was kicking off raids again (god love 'em), however I still have the odd spot that I will need to recruit for (OT *hint hint* & a few dps).

    I agree, as someone mentioned, that limited attempts is going to be a nightmare for recruiters & raid leaders as far as bringing in trials. I won't have a choice - I can't go trial them in ToC where wipe counters don't matter anymore & leave ICC to proven raiders - I'm going to need these trials to fill a few spare spots in our 25's, particularly a new OT to replace our departed co-gm. And if ICC is anything like ToC on our server, the dc's are going to take all of our attempts before we get any serious progression in.

    Since I'm not usually someone to whinge without presenting an idea for a solution, here goes. I'd love to see Blizz impliment another 'mode'. Call it Easy - then you have an instance that caters for all levels. The very casual & less skilled raiders can do easy, the middle guilds do normal, and the cream of the crop belt out heroic. Of course that'd require Blizz to put in another loot level, but it would help their instances cater for the whole spectrum, as opposed to nerfing things later so that everyone can do them. As far as limited attempts goes, well I only have 1 thing to say about that - get rid of it on normal!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  19. #79
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    So by the looks of it Ulduar is going to be the best instance in WotLK. No silly gates or limited attempts.

    I really don't get this system. Why can't they make fights that's actually hard instead of having to give us 5 attempts/week and gated instances. Coliseum with 5 bosses released over 5 weeks and now Icecrown with 4 wings seems to get released over even longer. Have they fallen that far from actually making fun fights that they have to put gates and limits to keep us playing?

    All 5 attempts/week does is removing the fun in pulling a boss and see what happens. Where did that fun go? Now we have to study the boss in advance, learn everything about it we possibly can and then hope noone important disconnect.

    And what's about several weeks between gates beeing lifted? Are we really going to have to kill the first 4 bosses 4-7-11-14 times before we can even see Arthas? That's just ridiculous. And then we'll have 15 attempts on the "hard" end wing bosses. Wrath of the Lich King is looking more and more like a big failure to me.

  20. #80
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    The limited attempts is there so you can't "nolife" boss encounter and get kills when all the stars line up. Although 5 is kinda low, I hope it goes up each week and eventually just goes away. How can my guild trial members or experiment with changing strategies on those end-wing bosses?

    If the "several weeks before gates are lifted" then yeah that's a big issue. All this hoopla over ICC and we can only see one wing for a month or more? I'm hoping I just read that wrong.
    Everything is FABULOUS with warrior tanks again.

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