How many DK Tanks are gunning for Shadowmourne?

[Djtk]

How can you say tanks should pass on this? When this is clearly a nice tanking upgrade, especially when the health pool increase?

[Proletaria]

Nobody should be passed over for this by merit of role in the raid. We're talking about a weapon that will be literally months of farming ICC in the making. You aren't trashing your one dps or your one tank who will or will not have it months from now by giving it to the best raider (nevermind the roles of tank vs. dps), period.

If your guild is a huge success in ICC and you cream hardmodes early on you might have 2 (maybe 3 if you're farming hard all the way up to cata release). By that point we're talkin about farm content. No raid needs 2 of these things to be relavent, efficient, or effective on a dps or a dk tank.

Bottom line: the discussion of who is benefits more in terms of raid effective role is moot, by the time your raid has one, you'll have put most of ICC on farm anyhow (or you'll be struggling the same amount on hardmodes you were struggling with before).

It's orange text, it's about prestige, dedication, and nothing more. Any guild who is giving this out to someone other than their most valuable and dedicated player (out of those who can use it) is making a mistake. Be that a tank dk or a warrior, paladin, dk dps, it doesn't really matter.

[Chamenas]

My only desire to have this axe would be because it is a legendary weapon I can use, and I'm rather sort of bummed that there aren't actually any legendary weapons that are good for me. I'm also rather bummed that I don't get my kickass legendary sword (Frostmourne).

That being said, me getting it is still doubtful. My guild is far away from any 25 mans, and I wouldnt steal the opportunity for a DPS class to have this first. Besides, I like DWing better.

[greendragonempire]

It is a marginal upgrade for a dk tank, please don't get into this silly arguement about threat and all that, you could hold threat off a warrior dual wielding 2 shadowmournes with a regular epic tank wep.

Its a HUGE upgrade for a dps dk, ret pally or warrior.

end of discussion.

now, i have no problem awarding this wep to a dk tank based on his guild merit, but please dont try and justify the decision based on stats.

[Djtk]

You realize that no other PC can wield Frostmourne, right?

[Chamenas]

You realize that no other PC can wield Frostmourne, right?

Which is why we don't have it, I'm quite aware of the lore thank you.

[Proletaria]

now, i have no problem awarding this wep to a dk tank based on his guild merit, but please dont try and justify the decision based on stats.

My point exactly, but I don't think most guilds have enough high-merit players around that the stat dicussion is even worth making.

The whole line of argument is silly. Less than a few months after the guild makes one, cata comes out and it's just a show-piece anyhow.

/thread

[Djtk]

It is a marginal upgrade for a dk tank, please don't get into this silly arguement about threat and all that, you could hold threat off a warrior dual wielding 2 shadowmournes with a regular epic tank wep.

Its a HUGE upgrade for a dps dk, ret pally or warrior.

end of discussion.

now, i have no problem awarding this wep to a dk tank based on his guild merit, but please dont try and justify the decision based on stats.

Marginal upgrade for a DK Tank? lol, really? You might wanna recheck that.

[Proletaria]

Q. What are your opinions on Shadowmourne as Death Knight tanking weapon? Was it made with intention on that as well or mainly for dps?

A. Shadowmourne was designed as a dps weapon. If you can score one and want to socket Stam in it, I suggest parading around Dalaran just to rub it in.

-Blizzard Dev Twitter, Jan 15

Not what I wanted to hear either, but it does end the discussion fairly well. =)

[Djtk]

It may have been designated for DPS, but you can't deny that because of the Strength stats and the strength gimmick, it plays to the DK Tank.

[Maelstrom]

Ever feel like you're stuck in a loop?

[Tank]

Lich king is probably dead before anyone get the weapon.

Any boss fight requires your tank to be at 110% not your 1 or 2 dps.

If all dps weapon priority belongs to dps, then why design a tanking class that uses dps weapon. I laugh at Blizzard designer for giving such a comment. Its like they are slapping their face. Why not just make DK use a 1h tanking weapon with a shield like all other tanks. At the end of the day if there should be a legendary tank weapon again, it will then belongs to a warrior/paladin. Or a 1h legendary dps weapon in the case of a frost dk, it will belongs to a rogue.

Why make people play a dk/druid tank if there aren't any incentive.

[Frame]

Lich king is probably dead before anyone get the weapon.

Any boss fight requires your tank to be at 110% not your 1 or 2 dps.

If all dps weapon priority belongs to dps, then why design a tanking class that uses dps weapon. I laugh at Blizzard designer for giving such a comment. Its like they are slapping their face. Why not just make DK use a 1h tanking weapon with a shield like all other tanks. At the end of the day if there should be a legendary tank weapon again, it will then belongs to a warrior/paladin. Or a 1h legendary dps weapon in the case of a frost dk, it will belongs to a rogue.

Why make people play a dk/druid tank if there aren't any incentive.

Agreed. And in fact, i did ask that question. (twitter link: Twitter / Vladislav Perge: #BlizzChat What are your o ...) I did laugh as well. Why design Death Knight to be able to tank with dps weapon, and then say "go rub it in in Dalaran with sta gems" if they did not want Shadowmourne to be at all intended to be tanking wep. And yes it is BiS for warr and pala but also for tanking dk. That's just stupid comment in my opinion by any designer that answered that.

[Maelstrom]

DKs are designed to tank with DPS weapons. Not all DPS weapons are optimal for DKs to tank with.

The relationship is not as simple as loothwhoring tendancies would like, and has been discussed, mathed and debated ad nauseam on previous pages in this very thread. Before anyone says "but teh strengths gives avoidances!", it gives a lot more relative DPS for DPS chars than it does avoidance for tanks. The best in slot DK avoidance and mitigation weapon is almost certainly an agility-based weapon since agility grants far more avoidance than strength, and also grants bonus armour for additional EH. If you need threat, I'd probably stick on a hit rating trinket or an offspec Death's verdict.

Great now I'm stuck in the discussion loop again.

[Djtk]

The best in slot DK avoidance and mitigation weapon is almost certainly an agility-based weapon since agility grants far more avoidance than strength.

Please see Forceful Deflection before you claim that agility weapons are better for DK tanks. Agility weapons are NOT. Strength is far more useful to DKs than Agility is. Agility is not all that useful for DKs. Anyone that claims this, is ignorant of what Strength does for DKs.

[Maelstrom]

Please see Forceful Deflection before you claim that agility weapons are better for DK tanks. Agility weapons are NOT. Strength is far more useful to DKs than Agility is. Agility is not all that useful for DKs. Anyone that claims this, is ignorant of what Strength does for DKs.

Please understand your class.

Forceful deflection grants DKs enormous amounts of parry rating, this is because DKs do not have a standard tanking "Here's 5% parry for 5 points" talent. The paladin and warrior deflection talents do not contribute to their diminishing returns.

Due to this, DKs have enormous DR on parry (Please see the various stickies for how Diminshing Returns work) and parry itself has a much harsher DR curve than dodge. Thus strength, which has a poor conversion rate into parry, grants much less avoidance compared to an equivalent amount of agility or dodge rating in the same item budget.

[Proletaria]

Please understand your class.

Forceful deflection grants DKs enormous amounts of parry rating, this is because DKs do not have a standard tanking "Here's 5% parry for 5 points" talent. The paladin and warrior deflection talents do not contribute to their diminishing returns.

Due to this, DKs have enormous DR on parry (Please see the various stickies for how Diminshing Returns work) and parry itself has a much harsher DR curve than dodge. Thus strength, which has a poor conversion rate into parry, grants much less avoidance compared to an equivalent amount of agility or dodge rating in the same item budget.

Agreed.

[Tank]

Both agility and strength are important for DK tank.

As I have said, its the game designer fault to make DK tank with dps weapon.

The ratio of dps against tank is 8 out of 10, certainly all dps will support that the fact that it is a weapon for DPS.

Nobody cares what weapon a DK tank use. Not only the Legendary, how many times are DK tank told to pass an Epic weapon to a DPS. Most officer only care is who top the dps meter. Does anyone congratulate a tank that top the tps meter in wowmeter? Does anyone appreciate a tank anymore?

Most likely answer to get from a typical guild is weapon is no concern for a DK tank. There are a thousand weapon in ICC that they could use.

(But remember Lich King is gonna be dead before anyone get Shadowmourne, it does not have any effect on progression) - key point. For most guild Cata will be release by the time anyone get Shadowmourne.

If a tank die, most likely the finger will be pointed to healers. If a tank did not generate good threat, the blame goes to the tanks, rogue and hunters.

TBH any good DK tank can top the dps meter anytime if they were to switch to DPS. But not every DPS can be a good Tank.

If a DK can't have equal right to 2H DPS weapon, 1H DPS weapon and 1H tank weapon, then there is no reason for them to tank.

Many DK tank will faceroll and not tank for the guild in Cata because there is just no reason to do so. It is stupid for blizzard to design such a tank class.

[Djtk]

Please understand your class.

Forceful deflection grants DKs enormous amounts of parry rating, this is because DKs do not have a standard tanking "Here's 5% parry for 5 points" talent. The paladin and warrior deflection talents do not contribute to their diminishing returns.

Due to this, DKs have enormous DR on parry (Please see the various stickies for how Diminshing Returns work) and parry itself has a much harsher DR curve than dodge. Thus strength, which has a poor conversion rate into parry, grants much less avoidance compared to an equivalent amount of agility or dodge rating in the same item budget.

In my defense, I completely forgot about the DR. As well, I am not sure of the math behind the DR for Parry, or the Agility gains for dodge and the like.

Though, my DK Tank has well over 20% dodge. Not sure of the exact number at this moment.

If you could present the numbers, I'd be appreciated. Always wanted to know the math behind it, but cannot seem to get a grasp on it.

[Tank]

I dun think DK tank has such high parry at the moment that we are suffering from DR, show us the math Maelstrom.