I think that DK tanks should have an equal chance. However, I also think it is better suited in the hands of a DPS class. It's really up to your guild how to hand it out. Our guild has typically given it to an officer. Not because they are an officer but usually the officers are the ones always running raids, dealing with recruitment, drama, rules, dkp. Not to mention they are the most reliable and stable of all of the players in the guild. Which is usually the actual reason they get the weapon.
Folks want to reduce competition, and increase the odds they'll be in a position to get this item. I do see a bias towards DPS builds (red sockets), however.
Originally Posted by Edgewalker
I personally am gunning for this, and the DPS warrior 'right above me' in DKP is completely realistic that I'm after it, and may get it prior to him if he picks up more upgrades. We're content, though I do consider whether or not I need to pass to 2H DPS. That, however, is something I can choose, not be shut out merely for being a tank.
Are you assuming that these weapons won't be completed before Arthas Hard Mode is on farm?
Originally Posted by Edgewalker
For clarity, I don't have an axe to grind either way (pun intended)
This happens over and over every time when a new legendary weapon available. People think they are the ONE who deserve the weapon. "I" benefit the most of it, it should be "mine"!
To be honest I think the weapon will be very limited. It involves 1./ collecting like 30/40 pieces of ore drops. and 2./ assume you have to complete Arthas hard mode, or partial hard mode. How many of you guys are 5/5 TOGC25? How many people actually crafted the staff in Naxx40? Or how many of your healers crafted your Ulduar Mace before 3.2?
I personally am happy enough if my guild could reach, or attempt the Arthas hardmode ^^
Where does it say it hast to be hard mode?
Originally Posted by Provident
In 3.3 I believe Unholy DK's will be using Armor Pen also... Which means that there are now 3-5 DK Specs (depending on how you look at it) which can use the weapon effectively (ie. Blood DPS, Unholy DPS, Blood/Frost/Unholy Tank.)
Originally Posted by Rukrow
Does that mean that it is now DK > Warrior > Retadin? That seems equally silly to me.
All ret big hitters are physical damage for a while now.
Long story short: This is all a bunch of crap excuses. The amount of "deservance" is not reliant on class other than "good for it's role", which encompasses all dks and all dpsing pallies/warriors.
Is it my understanding that unlike The Ancient Hammer you can have multiple people collecting mats for this Axe with little effect to each other. Assuming of course your guild isn't going to reserve all the essence for that one player. Which to me would seem silly as they are used for the profession items as well.
And the shards of the throne unlike the shards of Val'nyr are only available once you attain that quest? Does that mean if multiple people are on the same quest they can both loot the item?
Originally Posted by Lore
First of i wanted to bump this thread, was a good read for a DK tank walking the line between accepting or passing the award of Sadowmourn.
I'd like to get some more info and opinions if possible from you guys what you feel about Shadowmourn in a Dk Tanks hands, how 'good' it actually is for a tank?
(this is looking aside on who that 'deserve it')
I can't se a raid getting as much use of shadowmorun in the hands of a Tank as in the hands of a dps, if you could prove me wrong i would be very happy. Any info or opinions would be very much appreciated.
ps. To be noted, i play the role as Of tank in my guild. Meaning i'm the one who dps on bosses that do not require 3 tanks.
I don't think it's going to be a great benefit to anyone in particular over another class/spec/role, just like Lore said: give it to someone who deserves a legendary and does a lot for your guild.
The threat argument is weak. Threat should be a minor issue now, as any decent ICC 25man geared tank should have no issues with threat, especially with the new hunter's misdirect/tricks from rogues.
I agree threat gains aren't very meaningful when you stack them against the potential dps gain on a melee, but there are more variables to consider. Does the dk frequently dps anyhow? Are the other potential candidates just as much an asset to the guild?
I'm not convinced that every guild out there will have their first shadowmourne in the hands of a main-spec dps, and it's not because zomg it's BiS for dk tank, but more likely because they want him to have it. Legendaries like that aren't going to make or break your progression so why short-change your dk just because he tanks a few encounters?
Again, i'm not saying it's not better for dps, but I think the "clearly for X" is overly simplifying things. I certainly wouldn't hand out a legendary to a raider who has been with the guild less than a year (which, for us means we have 6-7 players to choose from).
First, I'd like to say, I only read the first page of this thread.
Now, that aside, from what I read on there, there seems to be a lot of ignorance towards exactly WHY Shadowmourne should be wielded by a Death Knight tank.
First and foremost that stood out in my mind the most, is the Strength buff. 40 str per stack. 9 stacks thats 360 strength. Death Knight's have an ability called Forceful Deflection which increases your parry rating 25% of what your strength is. Given that dodge is reduced by 20% in ICC, the parry rating becomes a more important stat.
So 360 strength + 223 strength gives a total of 583 strength. If my math is correct that is 145.75 increased parry at 9 stacks. Agility is nowhere NEAR this helpful as strength is for Death Knights.
Next is the stamina. 198 stam + 3 red sockets. You could easily slap in 3 +30 stam gems ( if you're a blood tank anyways, I would, since I need to have a large hit pool anyways ) giving you a total of 288 additional stam which is 2880 additional health.
So again, why would a Death Knight Tank NOT get this weapon? Frankly, if a Death Knight is one of your main tanks, Shadowmourne should go to the DK Tank first.
Anyways, just thought I'd share my view on it. I apologize if I repeated any of this, but as I originally said, I only read the first page.
Well, again, it goes without saying that a DK tank would use it and not 'waste' (per-se) the item. However, content in the last few patches has generally been more about dps than tank survival. Either that or your class mattered a lot more than your stats (ie. bears in old NR gear tanking anub, warriors in the mix-match block sets, etc.).
I'm still hankering for orange text myself, and since we're relatively light on 2h dps i'll probably have a Shadowmourne eventually, but as a raid leader weighing the options for progress I had to give the first to my most-reliable 2h dps (which for us was a ret paladin).
I believe that comes to 3196.8 health with Frost Presence, VotTW and SSG. Though I'm not sure if the stam bonuses are additive.
Originally Posted by Djtk
Stam bonuses are. I wasn't including the other stam bonuses. Only the ones that were on the weapon.
Sadly, threat was, is and will remain a consideration for tanks. The moment you don't worry about it, you start threat capping your highest DPS. To a degree, expecting them to moderate threat (Vanish, Feign Death, Iceblock, etc.) to ensure they don't pull is fair, but it's better to open up and maximize how much they can burn. The trend I've seen is towards intense, dps-driven encounters where how hot DPS can burn affects the success or failure of a raid. Taking too long is as much a risk of hitting an enrage timer as losing the fight to attrition or healer's going OOM.
Originally Posted by DeviousOne
Festergut is a great example, as my group is just a bit behind the timer and it's entirely about bringing up DPS across the board for the kill.
Please tell me that is a joke. With a few stacks of that debuff any tank should be cranking out absurd levels of threat. Hell, I almost ripped aggro off my prot pally co-tank with 9 stacks. That... that is something.
Originally Posted by Esch
Tanks should be passing this to DPS.
A "more threat" attempt at justification is simply absurd. DK's could use a bit of snap-threat, but a huge weapon is not required to do this-- certainly not if there's a qualified and devoted DPS in your guild that is willing to put forth the effort to get SM. Festergut's high dps requirement is planned for, with an outrageous buff for the current tank, and rotface's obligation to dump slimes limits the amount of face-rolling dps that's required. I simply cannot imagine a senario where DPS trumps threat at the moment. Outside ICC, with normal-levels of dodges and thus runestrikes with increased runestrike threat, DKs are far and away the BEST-TPS tanks, and with fast-attacking bosses and scent of blood, you should have a runestrike up a great deal of the time (I believe mine was about 70% in ICC10 when i tanked Weds)
I'm running a healthy 10-12k TPS with Bryntroll in ICC, with spikes to 11-14k in TOGC, and honestly, that's all that is required. I am currently third in line to take SM-mats etc, after our oldest DPS DK and Fury Warrior. I'm OK with that. You should be too.
Last edited by Taxxes; 01-15-2010 at 09:12 AM.