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Thread: How many DK Tanks are gunning for Shadowmourne?

  1. #61
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    As an example, by going from ToGC25 best in slot gear to Shadowmourne, a ret paladin would gain around 1000 DPS (I think the number was 1070dps for just equipping the axe, some guy at EJ math'ed it). A DK tank would not see anywhere near the increase due to their very low crit, arpen, haste, hit, and the diminished effective hit chance they have due to being in front of the boss (parry). It is simply a larger upgrade for your raid for it to be given to a DPS, especially given the fact that any competent tank will not be threat capping your raid anyway.

    That said, if a DK tank wants it and the raid is cool with it, then go for it.

    Grats to Horaxe. o/

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    WTB Titan's Grip for Prot Warriors.....
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    Yes. I do. I bid DKP on a two handed weapon I find that will support my needs when I am tanking. Why? Because I'm a tank that uses a two handed weapon for tanking. Simple as that.

    Death Knights are a very unique cause we simply are forced to take two handers as tanking weapons. They are as invaluable to us as much as DPSers value them. Our threat is directly linked to our weapon damage thanks to Rune Strike's abilities as well as most of our physical swinging damage. To state that we should step back and let our melee get better weapons than us when it directly affects our jobs is silly.

    You're free not to gun for it but you're going to have to realize that it's a very powerful tool in your hand if you do get it. If I was still raiding, I would sincerely push myself on getting it, whether I DPS or tank.
    well for the longest time in togc i've been using aesir's edge. could i have made more tps if i had needed a 2h over a melee dps sure, would it have made a difference? well yes in a negative way, bc i never was threat capping dps(so i'm doing my job) so it wouldn't change a thing there, but the raid dps would have increased by less bc that dps dk, warrior, retadin would have gotten a bigger dps increase then me. and for survival it would have made very little difference as aesir's edge is pretty much on par with all those weapons till the 25hc ones. which i'll have one soon enough, definatly b4 icc comes out. so all in all do i bid dkp on 2h? yes, do i bid over a melee dps? no

    as for the one that said a warrior that specs fury/prot. seriously either he's fury and i'll pass for him or he's prot and he'll pass for me. you seriously gonna say to a fury warrior, hey tuff luck for you. bc you have a prot offspec so on offdays more 10 mans can go out you just saw your shot at that legandary 2h fly through the window. that should rather be rewarded then punished if you ask me.

  4. #64
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    Actually, the warrior did pass for me. So ... yeah. It was a choice between me, him, and a retadin who's been in the guild for about a month. Since I'm a founding member of the guild (est in 06) and the warrior passed ... who do you think would be the best choice?
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  5. #65
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    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    As an example, by going from ToGC25 best in slot gear to Shadowmourne, a ret paladin would gain around 1000 DPS (I think the number was 1070dps for just equipping the axe, some guy at EJ math'ed it). A DK tank would not see anywhere near the increase due to their very low crit, arpen, haste, hit, and the diminished effective hit chance they have due to being in front of the boss (parry). It is simply a larger upgrade for your raid for it to be given to a DPS, especially given the fact that any competent tank will not be threat capping your raid anyway.

    That said, if a DK tank wants it and the raid is cool with it, then go for it.

    Grats to Horaxe. o/
    And this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Horaxe View Post
    Actually, the warrior did pass for me. So ... yeah. It was a choice between me, him, and a retadin who's been in the guild for about a month. Since I'm a founding member of the guild (est in 06) and the warrior passed ... who do you think would be the best choice?
    More then anything I see a legendary as an effort stick. You give it to someone who has been good for the guild and deserves it. If you're not a top10 guild there is also no need to min-max because it won't make the difference between a kill and a wipe.

    People are using a lot of rationale to why such and such should get the weapon while in the end, I think the person who deserves it most and also mostly uses 2 handers is the prime candidate.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    As an example, by going from ToGC25 best in slot gear to Shadowmourne, a ret paladin would gain around 1000 DPS (I think the number was 1070dps for just equipping the axe, some guy at EJ math'ed it). A DK tank would not see anywhere near the increase due to their very low crit, arpen, haste, hit, and the diminished effective hit chance they have due to being in front of the boss (parry). It is simply a larger upgrade for your raid for it to be given to a DPS, especially given the fact that any competent tank will not be threat capping your raid anyway.

    That said, if a DK tank wants it and the raid is cool with it, then go for it.
    This is only an absolute (and you don't need to math it out to know a dps will get more dps out of a weapon than a tank) *if* your sole metric is total raid dps, and min/max'ing numbers at that.

    How do you gauge the value of increasing the tank's threat and survival against total raid dps?
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  7. #67
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    The argument "who gets it first" isnt exactly a valid argument anymore.

    The only part of crafting shadowmourne that requires anything that actualy drops from a boss is the primordial saronite, and i dont think this is going to be a rare thing to come across because its used for all ICC craftables. The rest are either random quest items that drop from bosses, or needing to do something trivial on a boss.

    Getting this will be nothing like getting Vala'nyr.
    Sure it might not be practical to have 2 people soaking ice breaths at one time, and getting blood mirror has a bit of RNG to it, but none of the quest to get shadowmourne is going to be hard for a guild that can already kill the bosses needed.
    Last edited by squats; 11-21-2009 at 05:11 AM.

  8. #68
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    Seeing as it is legendary, I'm fairly confident it will be a closely controlled thing so not anyone who wants a 2h will get it.

    I'm not entirely sure how they'll do it, but given that, I suspect it may be a matter of controlling how many people can get Shadow's Edge? Surely they're not expecting that it will be enough just for people to have to take down the final bosses of ICC?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  9. #69
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    Id link the info but its all data mined at the moment so i cant. Just do a quick look at mmo-champion.

    From the looks of it you only have to get lights vengeance (frostmourne cave in dragonblight), collect 25 primordial saronite, and slay festergut and rotface, to get shadows edge. Then you do the quest line to get shadowmourne which involves doing tasks on bosses like soaking up 3 frost blasts from sindergosa. The only quest that requires you to collect anything after the primordial saronite requires you to collect 60 shadowfrost shards, and they are confirmed to be quest items looted from bosses.

  10. #70
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    Which I'm sure is not the whole picture.

    You don't really expect it will be that easy to get do you? If it is then everyone who can use a Str/Stam 2-hander, who clears ICC will get one.


    Or wait, I just caught that, Shadowfrost shards? Like, say, shards of Val'anyr?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Which I'm sure is not the whole picture.

    You don't really expect it will be that easy to get do you? If it is then everyone who can use a Str/Stam 2-hander, who clears ICC will get one.


    Or wait, I just caught that, Shadowfrost shards? Like, say, shards of Val'anyr?
    They are quest items. quest items can only be looted by someone with that quest, so prolly' not.

    The quests that you have to do to actually turn shadows edge into shadowmourne dont seem easy at all. but as far as getting shadows edge, yes, i do think it will be that easy.

  12. #72
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    As a tank? No. I think it would be selfish, assuming you have a 2H plate DPS in your guild that has been there for more than a month. Tanks generally won't need the slight boost in threat that Shadowmourne will provide, and the avoidance is meaningless. It's a good tank weapon, and probably has more potential for stamina than any other 2H weapon, but it's just not enough of a boost to justify giving it to a tank over a worthy DPS.

    As a DPS, though? Definitely. This weapon will benefit your raid most if it's bumping the damage of a good plate wearing damage class. Damage specs tend to get more out of the strength provided, and auras like Blood Presence help to increase the benefit provided by the weapon's increased damage.

    I probably wouldn't be able to respect any guild that gave their tank Shadowmourne before their DPS... It just seems like a dick move if you've got DPS that have been around awhile. Illogical if you use Thunderfury as an analogy. But Thunderfury was all about threat increase, and threat just isn't the issue it once was. Pick up a Bryntroll for the lifesteal proc and the stamina instead.

  13. #73
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    Avoidance is meaningless? I'm guessing you dps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Avoidance is meaningless? I'm guessing you dps?
    Heh. So we meet again, Ghostcrawler!

    But yes, the avoidance provided by the strength stack would be largely irrelevant (Notice that I implied that, and not that avoidance as a whole is meaningless). Still, avoidance in general just isn't a huge deal, and I can say that from both a tank and a healer perspective.

    To answer your second question, yes, my 25 man raid spec is DPS. I tank the 10 man. Looking at my armory would've answered that, though, so I think you thought you were being cute or something. =P

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    Heh. So we meet again, Ghostcrawler!

    But yes, the avoidance provided by the strength stack would be largely irrelevant (Notice that I implied that, and not that avoidance as a whole is meaningless). Still, avoidance in general just isn't a huge deal, and I can say that from both a tank and a healer perspective.

    To answer your second question, yes, my 25 man raid spec is DPS. I tank the 10 man. Looking at my armory would've answered that, though, so I think you thought you were being cute or something. =P
    you gain 4% parry from the proc before it explodes, thats hardly irrelevant.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    you gain 4% parry from the proc before it explodes, thats hardly irrelevant.
    Please explain! I do not understand.

  17. #77
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    If the stats are what they are looking like they will be, the weapon (with my preferred style of gemming) will give my DK Tank:

    280 Str = 617 AP and ~ 0.92% parry
    30 Agi = 60 armor and 0.5% dodge
    298 Stam = 2977 health

    Every proc of the weapon will boost my AP by 107 and my parry by ~0.16%, so at 9 stacks (i.e. before it detonates) it will grant an additional 1.43% chance to parry. When it detonates it will do the same damage in my hands that it will in the hands of a dpser. As a Blood DK I run a high count of swings for potential procs.

    All that on top of the tremendous threat/damage value I get out of the huge crit and ArP values.

    If you think 2% avoidance is trivial, you're missing something in terms of how survival works.

    So, like I said above. If your sole measure of value is total raid dps, yes it is better in the hands of a dpser. If you value your tanks threat and survival, it is anything but a waste in a DK tank's hands.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    If the stats are what they are looking like they will be, the weapon (with my preferred style of gemming) will give my DK Tank:

    280 Str = 617 AP and ~ 0.92% parry
    30 Agi = 60 armor and 0.5% dodge
    298 Stam = 2977 health

    Every proc of the weapon will boost my AP by 107 and my parry by ~0.16%, so at 9 stacks (i.e. before it detonates) it will grant an additional 1.43% chance to parry. When it detonates it will do the same damage in my hands that it will in the hands of a dpser. As a Blood DK I run a high count of swings for potential procs.

    All that on top of the tremendous threat/damage value I get out of the huge crit and ArP values.

    If you think 2% avoidance is trivial, you're missing something in terms of how survival works.

    So, like I said above. If your sole measure of value is total raid dps, yes it is better in the hands of a dpser. If you value your tanks threat and survival, it is anything but a waste in a DK tank's hands.
    you comparing this legendary weapon against no weapon... you're not gaining 2% avoidance, compare it to another 2h from (hc)25m icc and say again that you gain 2% avoidance.

    all i'm trying to say from a min/max point of view you can't really justify giving it to a dk tank.
    however i expect this weapon to be more of a gift from a guild to a raider anyway. and in that way horaxe gz with getting it, but trying to claim you get as much out of it as a melee dps just makes you sound foolish. saying you deserve it as much now that's a statement i can find myself in.

    to finalise it b4 all dk's kill me i'm not saying you shouldn't get it, we gave our leg mace to the raid leader who happens to be a disc priest and from a min/max point of view that probably isn't smart from our guild point of view it did make a lot of sence. just as i know who i'd give the axe to in our guild and he probably isn't the one getting the most out of it either from a min/max point of view. That's the use i see for legendary weapons, means to thank a raider.
    However that doesn't mean i'm gonna say that a disc priest is the best candidate or get's the most use out of leg mace, just as i won't say that for a dk tank as it's just not true

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by wazdaa View Post
    you comparing this legendary weapon against no weapon... you're not gaining 2% avoidance, compare it to another 2h from (hc)25m icc and say again that you gain 2% avoidance.

    all i'm trying to say from a min/max point of view you can't really justify giving it to a dk tank.
    This was my point also. It's not clear to me that it's a large upgrade for DK tanks over other ICC 25 H weapons, whereas it's likely to be a large upgrade for DPS.

    Of course if you're treating it more as a reward for a superb guildy then sure, a DK that tanks may deserve it just as much as anyone else. Of course you guys don't literally mean it's "just" about rewarding good behavior...you aren't going to give it to a mage, or a prot warrior just because they've had the best attendance and are excellent players.

    So we seem to be in a gray zone where people in the thread are saying it should go to someone that can "use it", but you aren't willing to pass it to someone who will most benefit the group when they use it...

    All I know is I'd be passing on it. And if I were RL it would go to a DPS unless this really turns out to be a major BiS upgrade for DK tanks compared to other ICC weapons. But I don't RL for any of you, so it doesn't really matter

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    This was my point also. It's not clear to me that it's a large upgrade for DK tanks over other ICC 25 H weapons, whereas it's likely to be a large upgrade for DPS.

    Of course if you're treating it more as a reward for a superb guildy then sure, a DK that tanks may deserve it just as much as anyone else. Of course you guys don't literally mean it's "just" about rewarding good behavior...you aren't going to give it to a mage, or a prot warrior just because they've had the best attendance and are excellent players.

    So we seem to be in a gray zone where people in the thread are saying it should go to someone that can "use it", but you aren't willing to pass it to someone who will most benefit the group when they use it...

    All I know is I'd be passing on it. And if I were RL it would go to a DPS unless this really turns out to be a major BiS upgrade for DK tanks compared to other ICC weapons. But I don't RL for any of you, so it doesn't really matter
    Uhhh if the gap size applies to a tanking dk, it applies to a dps dk. Nothing on that axe screams "not for a tank"

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