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Thread: Protection Warrior (Deep Wounds vs Cruelty)

  1. #1
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    Protection Warrior (Deep Wounds vs Cruelty)

    Alright, I am currently participating in the 15/3/53 spec phase, and it's great.

    However, many people keep telling me I am missing out by not having Cruelty in my spec at 3/5 or 5/5.

    The only way I see this possible is if I remove my deep wounds line, and then have to take 2 points out of Protection somewhere to get the other 2 points--which I prefer not to do.

    Has anyone done numbers to essentially determine which is more important over the long haul?

    I just don't see how 3%-5% crit can employ a greater deal of damage than deep wounds in extended boss fights.

    I just want some clarification from those who know best.

    Thanks in advance.

    I'm a little hazy on the idea of a 12/8/51 spec.

  2. #2
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    I've not run the numbers in a *long* time, but, when the level cap was bumped the general wisdom was that Deep Wounds was worth more threat, point for point, than Cruelty (on top of Impale, of course).

    From a quick re-check of talents, if you get Shockwave and Armored to the Teeth (also superior to Cruelty), you can get Deep Wounds with 2/5 Cruelty, or 4/5 Cruelty without.

    Here's the thinking as I understand it. The prot tree has several talents that boost the crit chance of all your major threat tools except for Revenge. Because of this passive bump, plus raid buffs, the value of Deep Wounds can stack up and make for quality threat, where as relatively Cruelty only offers 1% crit per point to all your moves.
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  3. #3
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    5/5 cruelty or 2/5 cruelty & 3/3 dw
    You can get to around 25-30% crit in a raid, so that there's every 4th hit a crit. with this, you get 0.48/4 = 0.12. So if your wpn dmg is 0.12 the average style damage of all styles in their ratio, you get the damage, dw grants you. And it would be a little bit difficult, to get more than ~8times the wpn dmg with all styles together.
    cruelty is, with much luck, a 1.5% dmg increase.
    So you get dmg*1.12 + dmg*1.015
    (This is only very, very, very simplified, to show a little bit of the effect. Maybe, if nobody else does it, i'll add some "better" numbers tomorrow )
    (Also, it may be, that there are some mistakes, it's a little bit late now.)

    /e to clarify a little bit, what i mean with "all styles in their ratio": if you, for example, use a max tps rotation, so shockwave/devastate/shield slam/(cb), you get(this are no "real" stats, it's only an example, how it could be) 1sw:4ss:6dev:1cb --> then the dmg you need to compare is (swdmg+4*ssdmg+6*devdmg+cbdmg)/12

    /e2: There's also another big advantage of dw: it's bleed damage, so armor doesn't influence it.
    Last edited by Quietsch; 11-17-2009 at 02:31 PM.

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    To pull that off, I would have to drop Concussion Blow and Points from Focused Rage, as there's no other talents in the Prot line I can really take away from.

    I'd be looking at 15/5/51 spec with that set-up. Going with 2/5 cruely of course.

    Would it be worth dropping my Conc Blow and a point of FR for the 2% crit?

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    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    (as example, so no FR, because i've always enough rage )
    taking one point out of FR: normally, you'll have enough rage with or without it.
    cb isn't ever part of your rotation, but normally it's better than 1 point in cruelty.

  6. #6
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    3-5% additional crit is a would be a very nominal increase. The reason for deep wounds is threat (and associated dps) and while the 3-5% increase in crit would slightly increase threat generation, there are other talents that you can spend your 3-5 points on where you will derive greater utility.

  7. #7
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    Imo, i would go 15/3/53, get deep wounds ingore cruelty and get Armored to the teeth

  8. #8
    Pfft, I go for a very very unorthodox spec of tanking for warriors

    I put in 12 points in Arms and skip deep wounds (doesn't do all that much threat anyway), in fury I put in 7 points: 3 in Armored to the teeth, 2 in cruelty, and 2 in imp demo. In my prot tree I max out shield specialization, incite, and imp thunderclap.

    IMO my talent build is the best balance between threat and rage generation, as well as mitigation. The World of Warcraft Armory

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    No, it isn't. 12 points in arms are useless, as well as 7 in fury.
    Either you spec into arms/dw, or you go for fury/imp.demo
    You have no balance, you've only wasted points.
    AND you've no gag order.

  10. #10
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    "No, it isn't."
    QFT. I see about a 7-8% increase in my damage output from deep wounds (higher on some fights). Just pulling some figures from a random recent ToC parse, I see that over the course of the clear, deep wounds ticked 1522 times for 356,189 damage. That's a significant amount of threat, no matter how you slice it.
    Last edited by Griff; 11-18-2009 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #11
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    To be clear, something that is not being said.

    Deep Wounds and anything that increases crit chance (Cruelty is one of many) increase each other's value.

    Also, somewhat anecdotal, but my co-tank is a prot warrior and when he first switched to include Deep Wounds back in t7 content he saw an 8% bump in his total threat. It has since been nerfed a little but I'm fairly confident it is still a sizable gain, *not* a missable value.

    My prot spec of choice right now is:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    It's missing only 60 sec cut off the Shield Wall CD, which is a judgment call. I'd drop the 2 from Cruelty to pick that up for progression and places where you really want/need the pacing or higher uptime for survival.

    In a perfect world I'd love to get Focused Rage back, but with the state of Shield Spec and the nature of raid damage now, I just don't need discounts to keep up well on threat. There is something to be said for trading the points from Cruelty back into Focused Rage for 5-mans and getting rolling to battle the occasional moments of low rage, but overall, Cruelty is the last place I fill points and the first to drop them for other mechanics.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    To be clear, something that is not being said.

    Deep Wounds and anything that increases crit chance (Cruelty is one of many) increase each other's value.
    Of course, but still if there's the choice between dw & cruelty, dw is better
    Also, somewhat anecdotal, but my co-tank is a prot warrior and when he first switched to include Deep Wounds back in t7 content he saw an 8% bump in his total threat. It has since been nerfed a little but I'm fairly confident it is still a sizable gain, *not* a missable value.
    dw got nerfed? (sorry if i missunderstood you, don't know if that was the meaning, or if you meaned(urgh, that seems to be wrong), that the effect from it was decreased for your co-tank)
    My prot spec of choice right now is:
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    It's missing only 60 sec cut off the Shield Wall CD, which is a judgment call. I'd drop the 2 from Cruelty to pick that up for progression and places where you really want/need the pacing or higher uptime for survival.
    would be interesting to know, what's better, 2/2 imp. revenge + 2/2 disciples, or 2/5 cruelty + 2/2 disciples, since imp. revenge is, only for tps(in some/many cases), not as good as dev

  13. #13
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    Thank you very much for the details mentioned above.

    With that said, I'm a bit more positive about taking on the Deep Wounds route. Cruelty, while great on the surface, just doesn't seem it will give me the utility desired overall as a tank in comparison to the other talents available.

    I decided to put the two points into Focused Rage instead. I dropped Vigilance and Improved Disciplines--as I do not see a need for either one in a raiding situation.

    Going with The World of Warcraft Armory


    Perhaps not perfect, but time will tell how this style suits me.

    I'm always open to further opinions and suggestions.

  14. #14
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    You're going to want vigilance. Even if you're not having threat issues, don't forget the built-in damage reduction. Tt can be very useful and save some squishy from ultimate doom.

  15. #15
    not having vigilance just tell me your raid environment isnt cutting edge.
    Ofc maybe your guild has enough hunters+rogues to provide you threat but mine does not. Vigilance + glyph is godly in my humble opinion.

    On the DW / Cruelty matter. Well personally I take DW since its still about 7-8% increase. Cruelty will never reach that level of effectiveness. ( World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis logs of jaraxus for example. 7.4% damage. And on this fight I switch to portal/volcano fulltime to aid killing , so it could be higher marginally)

    Why you all spec into less time on Shieldwall I have no idea. There just arent enough fights that take longer than 7-8 minutes that warrant using it twice. If u cant use your trinkets/laststand+regen/shieldwall that you normally have + external cooldowns from smart healers then your doing something wrong rly. So there are your points freed up to take both DW + some into cruelty

    Impr demo is a moot point rly , just get your feral bear/fury warr to spec into it and done. They will not lose anything rly

    (in case your wondering, I use my t9258 helm for anub add block gear aswell. Hence the odd meta)

    My spec has server me straight through ulduar/totGC and atm on the PTR hardmodes.
    It doesnt go wrong : )
    Last edited by Kherberos; 11-19-2009 at 05:48 PM.

  16. #16
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    Other than aggression swapping between a couple tanks, I cannot find a usefulness for Vigilance--as holding threat never seems to be a problem--and 10% of the threat 1 person causes in a 25-man raid is useless. The figure increases substaintially in 5-10 mans, however--which I suppose could be a "little" more viable in those situations.

    What are you left with, then? 3% damage reduction to the target you use it on? Again, other than a couple of tanks aggro swapping in offtanking situations, what good is that 3% going to do, to let's say, a clothie? If you lose aggro to start with (usually a mistake on the tank's part), and the mob hits your clothie, the clothie is going to die regardless. Lets say boss hits clothie for 25K on a regular hit, yet you have vigilance--so instead the damage is only 24,250. Either way, you have a dead clothie.

    Perhaps it could be useful for Demo Locks who rack up tons of aggro early on if not pacing themselves correctly, but even with their high HP, 3% isn't going to help much.

    Maybe I am wrong and am missing something, but that is the surface I'm looking at; and as a result, I just feel there are more vital talents to spend that point on other than Vigilance. Feel free to change my perspective with something I'm not considering though, as I have quite an open mind.

    I do see where a refreshed taunt ability could be useful, though. Thing is, I cannot remember the last time I have been forced to use taunt.

  17. #17
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    I believe Deep Wounds is a mistake. It only appears as a good dps/threat boost, but in reality, you benefit more from cruelty. Even that said, cruelty is not the best choice for your talent points either.

    Do not take my word for it, think for yourself, look closely at your talents, and even more important, think back to tanking situations.

    A warrior tank should keep a fast weapon as we all know. With a weapon speed of 1.6 (example, Titanguard), after testing(heroics), deep wounds acounts from between 1-3% of my overall damage.

    *note, deep wounds procs from white attacks*
    One target tank = more damage from it
    Aoe tanking = less dmg. Not a huge difference but enough to notice.

    Deep wounds does wonderful dps for a warrior with a 900damage weapon, but not so much for a sword that does 300.

    In theory, 5% crit = 10% dmg boost to all abilities(in our case with cruelty, weapon attacks). This means +10%dmg to things like heroic strike, devastate, revenge etc. However! Does not include Thunderclap, or damage shield, or shockwave. All the abilities important for aoe tanking. When a tank is a new tank, he is an offtank, and offtanks tank adds.(most of the time)

    One other note is stacking. Yes, deep wounds does stack(so to speak, there is a formula i do not know off the top of my head, but its easy to find - google. If those fights that last 30 seconds to 5 minute you may recieve 3% damage from 3 points in deep wounds. So we know that, initially, deep wounds does moderate damage, and gradually increases, and at some point I believe it does platue.

    In these 30 sec to 300 second encounters, say you desire that extra damage/threat, then Rend is a perfectly suitable ability to replace deep wounds. In addition, it will do 35% more damage to your big bad target when it is above 75% hp. So we get more threat earlier on then deep wounds would.

    I am not suggestion to get 2/2 imp. rend, that too is a bad choice, think about your tanking situations, and think about the encounters you should be prepared for at "your" stage in the game.

    Here is a crazy thought, 2 end game tanks, tanking Anub. Vent says "big heals on w/e tank!!!" , well safegaurd(2/2from prot tree) can give him 30%damage reduction for 6seconds, and you take the next blow he would of taken, probably helping the healers out more then they would ever know. Now think again, in reality, is this plausible in a raid situation? Would it be easy to accomplish fast enough? Well sure, tab to boss, intercept, that's it you saved the day and only maybe the tank noticed.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inkogneeto View Post
    I believe Deep Wounds is a mistake. It only appears as a good dps/threat boost, but in reality, you benefit more from cruelty. Even that said, cruelty is not the best choice for your talent points either.
    No. Cruelty isn't the best choice, yes, but that's the only true thing.
    A warrior tank should keep a fast weapon as we all know. With a weapon speed of 1.6 (example, Titanguard), after testing(heroics), deep wounds acounts from between 1-3% of my overall damage.
    You tested dw in the worst situation for it, where mobs are faster down, as anywhere else and also you got no/less buffs... very useful.
    *note, deep wounds procs from white attacks*
    One target tank = more damage from it
    Aoe tanking = less dmg. Not a huge difference but enough to notice.
    note, dw procs from all critical hits
    And also in aoe situations, dw is much better than cruelty, as it proccs of cleave/shockwave/thunder clap crits.
    Deep wounds does wonderful dps for a warrior with a 900damage weapon, but not so much for a sword that does 300.
    Yes... but you know, as tank you got also 600 wpn dmg? (or even more)
    In theory, 5% crit = 10% dmg boost to all abilities(in our case with cruelty, weapon attacks). This means +10%dmg to things like heroic strike, devastate, revenge etc. However! Does not include Thunderclap, or damage shield, or shockwave. All the abilities important for aoe tanking. When a tank is a new tank, he is an offtank, and offtanks tank adds.(most of the time)
    1% crit = 1% dmg boost, if you got a) 0% crit before it and b) all your abilities can crit
    Both isn't the case. cruelty affects all, as well as dw... but still, dw is better. up to 1% more dmg from cruelty, or up to 3-5% more dmg through dw, what's better?
    One other note is stacking. Yes, deep wounds does stack(so to speak, there is a formula i do not know off the top of my head, but its easy to find - google. If those fights that last 30 seconds to 5 minute you may recieve 3% damage from 3 points in deep wounds. So we know that, initially, deep wounds does moderate damage, and gradually increases, and at some point I believe it does platue.
    Ehm... remaining damage + new damage is the dw stacking... and you receive more than 3% dmg out of dw.
    You maybe shouldn't only say things you can't give evidence for.
    In these 30 sec to 300 second encounters, say you desire that extra damage/threat, then Rend is a perfectly suitable ability to replace deep wounds. In addition, it will do 35% more damage to your big bad target when it is above 75% hp. So we get more threat earlier on then deep wounds would.
    You know, that you can use both? and that rend is worser than devastate, so that there isn't any reason to use it, while dw is "passive"...
    Here is a crazy thought, 2 end game tanks, tanking Anub. Vent says "big heals on w/e tank!!!" , well safegaurd(2/2from prot tree) can give him 30%damage reduction for 6seconds, and you take the next blow he would of taken, probably helping the healers out more then they would ever know. Now think again, in reality, is this plausible in a raid situation? Would it be easy to accomplish fast enough? Well sure, tab to boss, intercept, that's it you saved the day and only maybe the tank noticed.
    And how is this linked to dw?

  19. #19
    I'd say any warrior that specs into deep wounds to help for threat needs to rework their toon and rotation somehow. I tested my threat, in 10 man ICC against that freakin big skeleton add, with my current spec I just chose (8/7/56 and used vigilance glyph). I was pulling over 9k TPS easy.

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