Quel-Delar: No tank version?

[Maèl]

My experience with Blizz is that they see the QQ but hardly quickly react to it. Once a decision is made they tend to stick to it for a while. Even if just to save face.

[Andronikus]

My experiance of all tanking loot.... although TOC has been kind to me and the other tanks in my guild a LOT (gear wise, not weapon).... is that Blizz and the RNG screw over tanks in instances and raids.

If we got gear as quick or as easy as DPS/healers then many tanks would want to start to run as DPS and then less 5 mans and 10/25 man raids get done. Would i still be running TOC 10 if i did not need, yes NEED, the sword from the last boss? Most likely i would cos i love tanking... but many once fully geared will want to start raiding as DPS.

By not giving us a tanking weapon from the QD quest they ensure that we run the 5 man heroic for the one in there.

By not giving a tanking weapon in toc25 they ensure that us tanks run TOC 10.

Maybe i'm wrong... maybe i'm just bitter that i still have a weapon from the welfare epic shop thats TOC5. Maybe i'm pissed i took 32 runs to get the Suneater and another 32 runs to get the Red Sword of Courage. (not including failed runs cos muppets can't handle collecting a few spears and throwing them at the right time while avoiding some smoke on the ground...)

And Blizz saying that it don't matter for a tank what weapon they use as long as they are def capped is shocking.

/end rant

Rage filled tank is rage filled.

[Xianth]

Which would be relevant if the quest line weapons were the same level as the new 5 mans. Since instead they are higher, it's like saying it doesn't matter because people can run CoS and get the ilvl 200 shield.

But the new 5 man stuff is good enough for entry level which is the whole point of it, a 232 wepon is more than sufficient to start ICC or do anything below. Hell, even I will be going into ICC with a 232 weapon. The shield is 219 which is a bit lower but it still a big upgrade over the other non-raid choices available and is still mroe than good enough to be used for entry level ICC too. Besides, this thread is about the weapons and it seems to me more like a case of people being pissed off they're not getting an awesome, easy 251 weapon like a bunch of other classes more than anything else but again, you can roll into the weekly 10 man raid quest for marrowgar and pick up a 251 tank weapon too.

If you are pressing the wrong buttons, or don't know how to stack your stats for high agro situations, then I agree that improving your gameplay yields a much larger benefit than a weapon upgrade. Oh, BTW this is equally true for DPS. Knowing your rotation and how to gear will benefit you far more than upgrading your weapon.


And if you ARE already gearing and using the appropriate threat rotation/priority then whether you like it or not upgrading your weapon is the most significant way to improve your threat, as simply adding a few extra points of strength on a new chest is not going to have nearly the benefit of getting a higher DPS range on your new weapon.

Even with a weapon that has "shit" DPS, if you are doing and gearing everything right then you won't have any threat problems. If you are doing all that and are losing aggro, an extra 40 DPS on a weapon is not going to make you suddenly be an aggro god. For example, adding a few more points of expertise/hit will make more of a difference, or threat glyphing, etc. etc. 40 dps is 60 damage on an auto swing and 60 damage on a devastate which probably equiates to about 150-200 TPS, if that.

[Thundercud]

Actually, your comment is silly .

You are welcome to your opinion and I'll admit you do have a point about hyperbole flying around... But in all fairness I wasn't the one who mentioned tanks "need"ing new weapons in the first place. Furthermore, I backed up my reversal of your argument with evidence... Nothing "silly" about that.

TomHuxley interpreted the data exactly right. I'm not crying about not getting a tank weapon from QD (look back at all my posts if you don't believe that) but I will ask if the decision makes any sense to others since it doesn't make any sense to me.

Is this a BIG DEAL? No. I'll keep using my iLevel 232 Titanguard until I get something better. And when I get something better it'll be awesome since I've had to wait for 3 months.

Thanks to all of you for respectfully contributing to a lively discussion.

[Xatheria]

Not only did I not get a ban, I just posted again in the thread moments ago (because it doesn't have ongoing flaming it slips off the front page more often...and I don't post again unless there is something worth responding to).

I didn't see the threads that got deleted/banned, so I can't comment on the differences, but I've been very careful not to exceed the posting rules and to not respond to flame bait. I'm not trying to imply you did, I simply didn't see what caused it so I can't have an opinion.

I get the feeling that at first it was the rampant flaming by opposed parties to the idea of tank getting a qd though the fact that they weren't banned while most of those in favor of the idea were does not lend credence to that possibility.

By the way did you delete the post I was searching for it to see if there were any new replies and I couldn't find it anymore just your posts in capped threads.

[TomHuxley]

But the new 5 man stuff is good enough for entry level which is the whole point of it, a 232 wepon is more than sufficient to start ICC or do anything below. Hell, even I will be going into ICC with a 232 weapon.

Right. They are good enough for anyone of any spec, but they aren't as good as the quest rewards. The point is that if you're going to make a quest line that rewards hitherto unattainable gear (to everyone not in ToGC25) then you need to strike a better balance with the quest rewards. Either be a bit more restrictive (i.e. weapons that truly only DPS, or only healers, or only tanks want...or perhaps all melee or casters) or give them to everyone. It's just not feasible to create a quest line where 90% of the specs are winners and 10% are losers and not have it feel like someone is being picked on.

And this would be true even if there were ilvl 251 shields on the quest line but no weapons that DK tanks could use. The problem is not that I don't personally get a wepaon, but that it's unavoidable that you're going to create hard feelings and a sense of (unintended) "being singled out" with players when you reward such a high percentage and then still leave a very small slice of losers. That's the issue, IMO. (I will also head into ICC with an ilvl 232 weapon...and shield...and it's not a big deal, I'll get an new weapon in ICC shortly unless RNG hates me).

Besides, this thread is about the weapons and it seems to me more like a case of people being pissed off they're not getting an awesome, easy 251 weapon like a bunch of other classes more than anything else but again, you can roll into the weekly 10 man raid quest for marrowgar and pick up a 251 tank weapon too.

I'm sure some people are just taking this personally...but that's sort of my larger point...you can't create quest rewards (when the rewards really matter...i.e. when it's the best available to most players in the game) that has a winner/loser ratio like this. You need to break it down some other way, divide it better by role (tanks/dps/heals), reward fewer specs, or just go ahead and make it include everyone. Or, finally, you could devalue the rewards somewhat (e.g. don't push the quest live until all the bosses are unlocked in ICC, make them lower level gear, etc) which would generally reduce the "getting screwed" feeling by the very small slice of players left out in the cold.

Even with a weapon that has "shit" DPS, if you are doing and gearing everything right then you won't have any threat problems. If you are doing all that and are losing aggro, an extra 40 DPS on a weapon is not going to make you suddenly be an aggro god. For example, adding a few more points of expertise/hit will make more of a difference, or threat glyphing, etc. etc. 40 dps is 60 damage on an auto swing and 60 damage on a devastate which probably equiates to about 150-200 TPS, if that.

This is completely beside the point. A warlock with Ilvl 245 gear that swaps between a Naxx 25 weapon and his ToC 25 weapon isn't going to see a giant change either when they swap weapons. The point is THERE WILL be a change in both cases (actually, it will be a bit more noticeable on the melee end). Of course we're looking at just a couple hundred TPS (assuming you are starting with a ToC 10 weapon), but of course the warlock is only going to be seeing a DPS increase of 50 or so (give or take). The point is they're equivalent upgrades, and pretending like it matters more for the warlock than the tank is factually wrong.

And this part of the discussion continues to be besides the point, as the devs could have made the weapons truly DPS only, but they failed to do so, meaning that half the tanks will get the upgrade too, as well as healers. The point really isn't whether or not tanks need loot lovin' too, but that the quest rewards need to be more intelligently designed to balance the winners and losers in a better way.

[TomHuxley]

By the way did you delete the post I was searching for it to see if there were any new replies and I couldn't find it anymore just your posts in capped threads.

Nope, it's gone now. I did not receive any punitive response, and I didn't go back to see how the thread continued, so I don't know if it devolved into pointless QQ and thread crapping or what. I trust it was seen by some of the people who need to see it, and it was allowed to stay up for over 24 hours, so I guess it served its purpose.

[TomHuxley]

BTW, did anyone note that there will be a gate mechanism in the ICC wings? I note this because the problematic presence of an epic questline that rewards 90% of the specs with weapons that are higher level than anything previously available (outside of ToGC 25) only gets compounded when the number of actually bosses available to drop loot in ICC will be 4 for the first month.

Now in practice I understand that the 10 man version drops some tank goodies in that first wing...not sure about daggers. But the point remains that the gated release makes the quest rewards more valuable rather than less (i.e. it reduces the "options" available for alternate gear). Seriously, this should have been thought through better. Not the gaited wings, that seems like a good idea, but given the very public release and lore of Que'delar (social importance), the quality of the rewards (higher than the vast majority of players can get access to), the limiting of alternative PVE gear (gaiting the wings in ICC), it's just incomprehensible to me that no one realized that the design of the Que'Delar quest rewards was extremely poorly thought out.

Make them restricted to one role (DPS...and include dagger rogues) or make them available to all specs (or depreciate the rewards themselves...but I can understand why people don't want this).

What's interesting to me is you can see the negative impact this is having even on players who will get rewarded; the "us vs. them" mentality has lead to outrageous whining on the official forums by the people who are getting quest rewards, as if the 10% of losing specs just need to stfu lest they somehow cost resto shammies of their beloved "DPS" caster quest reward. It's obviously being seen by many (though hardly all) as the leg up it is, and they don't want it extended to any other classes and they don't want to risk losing an upgrade that's only on the PTRs.

[Xatheria]

Nope, it's gone now. I did not receive any punitive response, and I didn't go back to see how the thread continued, so I don't know if it devolved into pointless QQ and thread crapping or what. I trust it was seen by some of the people who need to see it, and it was allowed to stay up for over 24 hours, so I guess it served its purpose.

I checked it last night there really wasn't flaming seems they are purging all threads talking about qd each night, so boring to be done with coding for the day and not able to post on the wow forums.

I think at this point blizzard is just going to refuse they made a mistake to use a more extreme example how long was cthun immortal again heh or dk chain cds through all of uld they are notoriously slow to fix things.

The one thing that annoys me is they can take the time to put an annoying Mr. T mohawk grenade in game and cant just put a tanking sword and mut dagger in reusing skins which would take all of 10 mins and make the quest perfect essentially.

[Xianth]

Right. They are good enough for anyone of any spec, but they aren't as good as the quest rewards. The point is that if you're going to make a quest line that rewards hitherto unattainable gear (to everyone not in ToGC25) then you need to strike a better balance with the quest rewards. Either be a bit more restrictive (i.e. weapons that truly only DPS, or only healers, or only tanks want...or perhaps all melee or casters) or give them to everyone. It's just not feasible to create a quest line where 90% of the specs are winners and 10% are losers and not have it feel like someone is being picked on.

And this would be true even if there were ilvl 251 shields on the quest line but no weapons that DK tanks could use. The problem is not that I don't personally get a wepaon, but that it's unavoidable that you're going to create hard feelings and a sense of (unintended) "being singled out" with players when you reward such a high percentage and then still leave a very small slice of losers. That's the issue, IMO. (I will also head into ICC with an ilvl 232 weapon...and shield...and it's not a big deal, I'll get an new weapon in ICC shortly unless RNG hates me).

You seem to be forgetting the points I've already made. You talk about about unattainable gear "except to those in togc25" but there's already a 251 weapon available from the first boss in ICC 10 who ALSO is part of the weekly raid quest which will be pugged till the cows come home. If you don't raid ANYTHING at all, so much that you wouldnt even raid the raid weekly quest and/or do the easiest boss of the new content, then why exactly do you need a 251 weapon? You certainly don't need it for heroics, and that's ignoring the fact there are TWO ilevel 232 weapons available in the new 5 man. Sure, it would be nice, and I'm not saying I don't want a tank version of Quel'delar (because that would be estupid) and I totally concur that it seems silly that the only thing that isn't covered by Quel'delar is a tanking 1 hander, but it's not some world ending catasrophe that there isn't one, even for people who don't raid regularly/at all.

I'm sure some people are just taking this personally...but that's sort of my larger point...you can't create quest rewards (when the rewards really matter...i.e. when it's the best available to most players in the game) that has a winner/loser ratio like this. You need to break it down some other way, divide it better by role (tanks/dps/heals), reward fewer specs, or just go ahead and make it include everyone. Or, finally, you could devalue the rewards somewhat (e.g. don't push the quest live until all the bosses are unlocked in ICC, make them lower level gear, etc) which would generally reduce the "getting screwed" feeling by the very small slice of players left out in the cold.

Then people need a reality check, this is a game and not having a quest reward weapon isn't gonna prevent you from enjoying the game or give you cancer IRL. Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is, a little extra bit of gear and it wont make you suddenly an amazing tank able to put out awesome aggro or anything like that. . Blizzard doesn't have some personal vendetta against tanks either. It's all just bollocks strung out by people upset that they don't have easy access to a big dick extension.

This is completely beside the point. A warlock with Ilvl 245 gear that swaps between a Naxx 25 weapon and his ToC 25 weapon isn't going to see a giant change either when they swap weapons. The point is THERE WILL be a change in both cases (actually, it will be a bit more noticeable on the melee end). Of course we're looking at just a couple hundred TPS (assuming you are starting with a ToC 10 weapon), but of course the warlock is only going to be seeing a DPS increase of 50 or so (give or take). The point is they're equivalent upgrades, and pretending like it matters more for the warlock than the tank is factually wrong.

But your comparison is a complete fallacy because you are comparing a tank to a DPS class which are two massively different roles who's "contibution" to success is measured in completely different ways. A DPSer will always gain from increasing every aspect of their gear (hence all DPSers having a quel'delar) because more DPS will always make a fight/instance quicker by having more DPS. Not only that, a lock probably gains what, 200 spellpower?, from using quel'delar over the dagger from ToC5H (for the sake keeping continuity in the 5 man comparison). that's a signifcant amount of DPS and probably gives them a 5-8% spell damage boost in gear for that level which IS significant AND provides linear gains to their ability to function in their role. On the other hand, A tank just needs to do enough threat and be able to survive. the key word here is "enough"; if you do 6000 TPS with a crap weapon and 6200 with Quel'delar but can easily hold aggro in both situations then the gain from the new weapon doesn't matter one little bit. If you hold suffcient aggro then any extra TPS is utter pointless, it provides no benefit to the fight at all. If you occasionally struggle for aggro then 200 more TPS doesn't mean you are going to hold aggro a lot more, you'll still be losing it just as regularly which means elsewhere there are issues. The rest of your gear choices and what you are doing are what's important in threat generating and it's not something that can be fixed by a 251 weapon dropping into your lap.

And this part of the discussion continues to be besides the point, as the devs could have made the weapons truly DPS only, but they failed to do so, meaning that half the tanks will get the upgrade too, as well as healers. The point really isn't whether or not tanks need loot lovin' too, but that the quest rewards need to be more intelligently designed to balance the winners and losers in a better way.

As I've just mentioned previously, of course it's a bit silly that they've catered for nearly every class & spec but it's not a big deal. It's all just people being annoyed that they havn't got an easy weapon available to them rather than it haing any actual affect on the balance of the game or their ability to function in their classes role.

[Astemus]

Has anyone considered that the item to start the quest may be as rare as the original quel'serrar book? It's possible you may get only one or two ever if your guild runs the new 5 mans regularly. And if that's the case, good luck trying to get it in a pug, since it's not BOP.

In that case, it'll hardly be "free 251 weapons for everyone except me".

Also, there are tank rewards, druids and DKs will get nice weapon upgrades to tank with. So really, it's only warrior and paladin tanks being left out. And it's about time. Those two specs have their own weapons that noone else can roll on. DK and Druid tanks have been fighting against DPS for their weapons for a long time.

[Thundercud]

If you don't raid ANYTHING at all, so much that you wouldnt even raid the raid weekly quest and/or do the easiest boss of the new content, then why exactly do you need a 251 weapon? You certainly don't need it for heroics, and that's ignoring the fact there are TWO ilevel 232 weapons available in the new 5 man. Sure, it would be nice, and I'm not saying I don't want a tank version of Quel'delar (because that would be estupid) and I totally concur that it seems silly that the only thing that isn't covered by Quel'delar is a tanking 1 hander, but it's not some world ending catasrophe that there isn't one, even for people who don't raid regularly/at all.

No one is seriously arguing that this is serious business. TomHuxley, myself, others and even... you... have admitted that this is about a decision by Blizzard that doesn't make sense. Good. So we agree. Moving on.

Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is, a little extra bit of gear and it wont make you suddenly an amazing tank able to put out awesome aggro or anything like that. Blizzard doesn't have some personal vendetta against tanks either.

Are you defending Blizzard here or just arguing for argument's sake? When 95% of the player base gets a toy... and 5% doesn't... the 5% feel a bit screwed. Makes sense to me. Again, no one here is crying about it... arguing passionately perhaps, but not crying. Moving on again.

...you are comparing a tank to a DPS class which are two massively different roles who's "contibution" to success is measured in completely different ways. A DPSer will always gain from increasing every aspect of their gear (hence all DPSers having a quel'delar) because more DPS will always make a fight/instance quicker by having more DPS.

How fast is an instance run if all the dps has to hold back because the tank can't keep up on threat? Currently this is not a problem, but when every dps that can run heroics gets a 251 weapon, it might get a bit harder for tanks to keep aggro.

A tank just needs to do enough threat and be able to survive. the key word here is "enough"; if you do 6000 TPS with a crap weapon and 6200 with Quel'delar but can easily hold aggro in both situations then the gain from the new weapon doesn't matter one little bit. If you hold suffcient aggro then any extra TPS is utter pointless, it provides no benefit to the fight at all.

This is a moot point since there is no magic number of "enough" threat and every tank tries to put out as much threat as they can so that dps can go all out. Basically, as a tank I have two goals in descending priority. 1) Get enough gear, gems and enchants to survive the content I will tank and once I can survive; 2) boost my dps and threat as much as possible! Speaking for myself (other tanks can chime in here as well ) I like a big upgrade to my chest or belt... but I LOVE a new shield or weapon! Why is that? For the same reason any dps cares most for their weapon... Because it's the active extension of your will. I don't slam the boss in the face with my leg armor, but my shield in one hand... and my weapon in the other deliver my challenge to that 30 foot tall boss!

(dramatization incoming) In the brief moments between the GCD time seems to stop... Hey you. Yeah you way up there. Ignore all these pesky mages and rogues. Those fireballs and ruptures hurt don't they! They don't matter. You want me and me alone! Hit me with all you've got and I'll do the same. I won't just hide behind this shield, I'll turn it and everything in my power against you as a weapon. Do your worst! (/stage bow)

Weapons are just as important to tanks as they are to other classes, psychologically if not empirically and you are ignoring the fact that a tank weapon doesn't just contribute weapon dps, it also contributes stats that help us do our job better... In a linear fashion. The fact that our "success" is based on a composite of our ability to survive and our ability to push out dps/tps doesn't make us fundamentally any different than any other class... Better gear is better. Period. And since we've established that no loot would have to be taken from any other class to give tanks a reward... What's the problem?

As I've just mentioned previously, of course it's a bit silly that they've catered for nearly every class & spec but it's not a big deal. It's all just people being annoyed that they havn't got an easy weapon available to them rather than it haing any actual affect on the balance of the game or their ability to function in their classes role.

Yep. Once again we agree... it's not a big deal. I don't think even the most vocal of the posters here has said it is a "big deal". Bad idea, poorly thought out, lacking common sense, but not a game breaker. Besides, it gives us something to argue about in the meantime and that can only be a good thing.

[Airowird]

Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is

It's not that Shamans are lacking, it's just that every other class is currently overpowered.

If I tank everything with 2 friends, a DPS and a healer, they will gain something from this quest and I won't. Either Blizzard skrewed me over for whatever reason possibly imaginable, or they 'rewarded' the other 2 more than me for exactly the same reason.

In the end, it all boils down to "everyone except Warrior/Paladin tanks get a reward". If you're one of those 2, you probably feel this as Blizz hate (note: they don't hate you), as any other class you'll probably feel greatly rewarded for picking Blizzards favourite class (note: they don't love you more).
Not that I mind, my Warrior is just an alt and I will be happily picking up a crit/haste weapon with my resto shaman, but I do support warriors/paladins in this case.
The ONLY counter-argument I've ever heard so far was from that little voice in my head (well, the third one from the left atleast, when counting when I've had atleast 3 beers and no more than 2) who said; Yeah, but you got your LOLLORE moment with the revamps of QS, all the rest is getting QD, which is it's sister blade.

[Bladesong]

So the TL/DR for this entire discussion:

We are in complete agreement that it would be nice to have a Warrior/Paladin weapon reward

We are in stark disagreement on whether or not the lack of said weapon constitutes being "screwed"

[TomHuxley]

You seem to be forgetting the points I've already made. You talk about about unattainable gear "except to those in togc25" but there's already a 251 weapon available from the first boss in ICC 10 who ALSO is part of the weekly raid quest which will be pugged till the cows come home.

Yeah, sorry, not the same thing. A reward available to raiders that they can pursue outside of a raid (e.g on their own time, while pugging, whatever) is NOT the same, unless there are no DPS weapons at all on the first few bosses? Oh, and I note there's not dagger from Morrogar...

Sure, it would be nice, and I'm not saying I don't want a tank version of Quel'delar (because that would be estupid) and I totally concur that it seems silly that the only thing that isn't covered by Quel'delar is a tanking 1 hander, but it's not some world ending catasrophe that there isn't one, even for people who don't raid regularly/at all.

Yeah, we're all in violent agreement here. No one's threatening to boycott 5 mans, quit the game, etc. The point is it's bad game design and it should be changed, if not now then in the future.

Then people need a reality check, this is a game and not having a quest reward weapon isn't gonna prevent you from enjoying the game or give you cancer IRL.

You're arguing against a strawman, no one here believes that. I realize that some of the more exaggerated posters on the official forums say things along those lines, but, well, it's the official forums, what do you want?

Not getting a nice reward isn't getting screwed; a reward is a bonus, an extra, and that's all it is, a little extra bit of gear and it wont make you suddenly an amazing tank able to put out awesome aggro or anything like that.

And now you're arguing semantics. The point is that you can't create an endgame BiS reward with the current winner/loser ratio without a significant number of people taking it personally. It would have been so easy to make the quest rewards apply to only DPS specs, and even easier just to drop in a dagger and a tank 1H. Or to just make the quest give lesser rewards, or to simply deploy it at the end of the ICC gaiting (when raiders had access to all the bosses). Any of these could be implemented in under a day (if not under a half hour) and would eliminate the inherent flaw in the design. The point is they didn't, and moreover the "explanations" same across as distinctly disingenuous, which for players that were already feeling excluded serves to reinforce the feeling.

Blizzard doesn't have some personal vendetta against tanks either. It's all just bollocks strung out by people upset that they don't have easy access to a big dick extension.

Speaking of bollocks, you're still just using phraseology changes here rather than making a case. Fine, I'll use yours: 90% of the specs get a shot at easy access to dick enlargement. Basic psychology is that when you reward such a high percentage of specs with large epeens, the very small remaining segment will feel left out. It's bad design, and specifically is worse than past epic quest rewards that supplied genital enhancement to a much smaller subset of specs, or were careful to only upgraded the genitalia of specs of a specific role (e.g. DPS specs...and ONLY DPS specs).

On the other hand, A tank just needs to do enough threat and be able to survive. the key word here is "enough"; if you do 6000 TPS with a crap weapon and 6200 with Quel'delar but can easily hold aggro in both situations then the gain from the new weapon doesn't matter one little bit.

This argument is a red herring, as the point is the distribution of the rewards. For example, I've repeatedly shown how weapons could have been itemized so that no tanks took them of any class (at least, not for their tank spec). In that case you'd have a fair distribution of rewards, and would not end up in the poorly designed situation we are currently in.

To briefly address your facts, the caster dagger in ToC 10 has 550 spellpower plus a red socket while the caster weapons from QD have 657 spellpower and no socket, we we are talking about less than 100 spellpower. Certainly if you're currently just holding threat against geared min/maxing DPS (and if you have to gear and spec for survival that can happen on some fights) then having an equivalent QD tank reward would maintain the status quo. Of course a tank QD would also have more survival stats on it, so it would not only let a tank increase their TPS on pace with casters, it would increase survival too...in other words it would be a more important upgrade for tanks, not less. But again, this is a red herring, as what matters is the fact that the quest rewards should be either more restricted or else all inclusive.

You keep going on and on about how this is just a lot of people whining about their lack of free lootz, but almost all of the posts above are concerned about the design not just here but on future epic quest lines, where it could be that only DKs are the losers (or pick your favorite 3 specs to exclude).

There's little reason why this couldn't be changed in time for 3.3, even if it's going live next week. But if it isn't (and I'd wager they won't fix it) the point is they should realize this is poor design and change their reward system the next time they sit down to come up with an epic quest line like this.

[TomHuxley]

Has anyone considered that the item to start the quest may be as rare as the original quel'serrar book? It's possible you may get only one or two ever if your guild runs the new 5 mans regularly.

I actually expect this. The point remains the same. Imagine that the Onyxia mounts could be equipped by everyone except prot pallies/prot warriors and mut rogues. The drop rate is almost certainly lower for the Ony mount than it is for the QD quest item and of course the mounts don't effect PVE performance at all...but would that be any more consolation to shield tanks and mut rogues?