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Thread: Guild loyalties

  1. #1
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    Guild loyalties

    Basically my guild are about to take on Toc 10
    and im pushing 2.5k dps in 5 mans with them

    And i have been told that they are likely to PUG some higher dps rather than take me.

    I understand they wanna have a smooth full run but personally id rather struggle a little with a guildy an help them gear....

    Just wondered what other peoples views are

  2. #2
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    That's just wrong. Guildes before PuGs. What you do in 5 mans, is not really a good guage of what you can do in a raid. Mobs die too fast in 5 mans; also, people rely too much on dps.

  3. #3
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    Mobs may die fast in a heroic but that really only should affect Spriests, rogues, or a feral druid. Even in heroics my feral does about the same dps as in raids though so it may be that 2.5k (+ some extra from raid buffs) is all you're going to pull. Id ask to talk to the person setting the raid up and tell them how you feel. Be diplomatic about it and go into it ready to accept their decision.
    The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason. Talga Vassternich.

  4. #4
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    I agree that taking a PuG over a guildie is bad.

    At the same time, you might want to look into why your dps is only at 2.5k. Is it gear? Spec? Gemming/enchants? Rotation? See if you can manage to make some improvements in the interim that makes you a more appealing choice -- maybe your dps is low in their estimation, but you are improving.

    We might be able to help in that respect if you provided an armory link.

  5. #5
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    true. i mean i dont want to be a hinderance on the group.
    i am big enough to accept that im not up to the job if im not.
    but to be considered i think is a minimum.

    If i do get in ill be sure to top up on flasks n food an hopefully prove myself :P

    Armory link

    here is the link i know its probably wrong place for it but i figured its on topic
    Last edited by woodyman; 11-11-2009 at 09:37 AM. Reason: link

  6. #6
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    The fact that they're willing to PUG a DPS seems like they're more interested in clearing content and personal progression than they are about helping people and progressing the guild as a whole.

    However 2.5k is, to many people, a tad on the low end for DPS. I don't know what the preferred number is for ToC-10, but I wanna say 2.5k was...possibly the median for Naxx or Ulduar. Don't remember which since it's been awhile since I've heard that number.

    Fealthas is right, however. If you feel like you're capable of going, the best thing to do would be to have a civilized chat with the person who's putting the raid together. Tell them how you feel, and definitely be prepared to accept the answer of if you're going or not.

    If they really don't feel comfortable letting you go, then I'd say see if they have any concrete conditions to you going next run. Like if you get your DPS up to X.Xk DPS, you'll at least be able to pull your weight or something. That way you have a viable goal to shoot for in the future rather than just a vague 'your DPS is too low' or a possibly slightly insulting 'we'd rather PUG than take you'.

    The other thing that you might wanna do is take a look at how you perform in other raids. Some people are crazy about DPS charts, but sometimes DPS can be used as an excuse to avoid talking about something a bit more sensitive...like for example Bob pulls 3.5k easy, but he stands in the fire and won't listen to people when he's told to move because his eyes are glued to his rotations and damage-meter and he's terrified of loosing his spot if his damage drops, nevermind that if you're dead your DPS goes to zero.

    So yeah...in short I'd say talk with the Raid Leader, see what advice and reasoning he or she has to offer, be prepared to sit this one out, (being able to take being benched is a great quality in a raider. trust me.) examine your playstyle and see if there's anything you might be slipping up on that you hadn't noticed, and get some numbers and set some goals you can reach.

    After that, all I can say is be patient and good luck.
    "I don't have a dream, so I protect the dreams of others."~Inui Takumi

  7. #7
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    thanks for the info.
    to be fair my gear is what lets me down. or at least i like to think
    I was off for 6months (New baby) over the emb conquest transistion so half my kit is still Lvl 200

  8. #8
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    in that vein, a weeks worth of heroics and daily 5 man toc should have you decked out in 219/226 gear for the next instance reset anyway. dps minimums are pretty lax in toc, but it does help out your raid healers a bit to have the extra stam that comes with the higher ilevel gear.

  9. #9
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    I'm sorry, it's probably just me, but as an office of one of my guilds, I could not and would not stand for a PuG over a guildie; just PuG'ing 'cause you want to clear content when you have a guildie wanting to go- sorry, that's selfish and unacceptable in my book. You carry and support your guildmates. Plus 2.5k in ToCr; that's fine depending on the rest of the group, plus with full raid buffs it's probably closer to 3k.

    How many people in your guild? What's the dps like for the other members?

  10. #10
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    Looks like, from standpoint of your gear, you are right on the edge of being able to do TotC-10. I think a few badge runs, and upgrades are in order for you, at this point. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you are getting 2.5k dps, but then, most of my gear is pvp, so maybe that's the difference there.

    For now, I'd ask politely, but I wouldn't expect to be taken there, for a while. I would get Icescale armor for legs, Agi for the cloak, and mongoose or Massacre, for your axe (I love that axe!). You need to get some strength and attack power.

    If you feel your guild should be helping you more, that's one thing, but you really need to show more prep, for this...

    One other thing I noticed was the leather piece? I had heard of Arms Warrs doing this, in the past, but I think it's not really necessary, or wise, anymore. Did I miss something, or am I right? (I'm relatively new at the spec, so I'm not 100% sure.)
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  11. #11
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    In the first post you said "And i have been told that they are likely to PUG some higher dps...". By whom? (raid leader? officer? the guild gossip?- c'mon, you know every guild has one). When? Did they say anything along with that like "unless you get a couple pieces of gear before then" or "if Bob is running it because he wants to see it before he leaves for basic training".
    If they are warning you now, a week or two before the start, that you aren't ready it's a big fat hint that they want you to go get ready. They are not saying "you suck, go away" they are saying "dude, I like playing with you but I wish you had better gear".

    Get out there and gear up.

  12. #12
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    Hi guys just a quick update
    Spoke to the GM etc and it seems they are a decent bunch and the person who said about pugging was not the guy to be makin the decision.
    As it turns out we did
    VOA
    ony 10
    so i got a little geared and as i was lowest dps i switched an played OT instead

    AS for the leather part i must admit this wasnt otally on purpose
    i was concentrating solely on the stats and these had more use to me at the time
    not a totally wise choice however they arnt any worse than the plate ones so ill keep them for now

    PS i was a little suprised i was gettin 2.5k as well but my Arp is 35% which has shown some very good results

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyman View Post
    Hi guys just a quick update
    Spoke to the GM etc and it seems they are a decent bunch and the person who said about pugging was not the guy to be makin the decision.
    As it turns out we did
    VOA
    ony 10
    so i got a little geared and as i was lowest dps i switched an played OT instead

    AS for the leather part i must admit this wasnt otally on purpose
    i was concentrating solely on the stats and these had more use to me at the time
    not a totally wise choice however they arnt any worse than the plate ones so ill keep them for now

    PS i was a little suprised i was gettin 2.5k as well but my Arp is 35% which has shown some very good results


    Ah, ok--I had dabbled a bit with the leather piece, too, but had dropped it, for pvp reasons. I have often wondered why Warrs can equip any armor, and yet never seen one wearing cloth, unless it was a fishing hat..

    The Arp stat? Ah, yes, that could be the reason...anyway, glad to see that ya weren't excluded from the raid.
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  14. #14
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    That's pretty bad. I guess it depends on their other DPSers. We have 3 or so guys that consistantly pull like 4.5 or 5 on our ToC 10s, so we can afford to bring some under 3k dps. It all evens out.

    How do they expect you to get better gear if they don't let you into raids? Pug it? That leads to quite a connundrum. I mean if you're pugging all your raids, you might as well find another guild or hell even go guildless.

    As far as gear, your enchants and gem choices could use some work. Warriors should be gemming str not AtPwr, because 1 str = 2 AtPwr and kings makes your strength go up 10% but does nothing to AtPwr directly. Also, work on your Sons of Hodir rep to get the PvE shoulder enchant. Ebon blade rep or whatever they're called will get you a better head enchant.

    Anyway I don't understand why they would do this. I would talk to them about it. They'll either tell you the truth and work out some kind of plan to get you up to speed or whatever, or just ditch that pile of dung for a better guild that will bring you along as part of the team.

    Of course if their best dps are sitting right around 3k, then yeah they'll need to pug some better dps to carry them to victory. lol

  15. #15
    Its so easy to gear with badges and crafted anyone with a little effort can out gear ToC10, i fail to see why its a guilds responsibility to carry undergeared/ under performing people. With a little effort there shouldnt be a problem.

  16. #16
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    I agree that it would suck to be sat out for a pug but you also need to put in some effort before you plan on tackling new content. From your armory i see blue items and a few items from 5m heroics. I wouldnt worry too much about getting into ToC, you still need work in naxx and uld first. One to two guild runs should net you some gret gear as most people arent really using it anymore.

    If i was planning on getting into running i wouldnt go from running a mile(5m heroics) to a marathon (Toc) in one day, i'd probably start off doing 3 miles(uld) first...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayhawk92555 View Post
    I agree that it would suck to be sat out for a pug but you also need to put in some effort before you plan on tackling new content. From your armory i see blue items and a few items from 5m heroics. I wouldnt worry too much about getting into ToC, you still need work in naxx and uld first. One to two guild runs should net you some gret gear as most people arent really using it anymore.

    If i was planning on getting into running i wouldnt go from running a mile(5m heroics) to a marathon (Toc) in one day, i'd probably start off doing 3 miles(uld) first...
    I agree and disagree somewhat. ToC10 normal is so f***ing easy with such big rewards that it is pretty much pointless to do naxx. You can skip ulduar and naxx almost completely now and get decked. My warlock has less than 3 days played, has PuG'd almost everything and now has almost all either 232 or 245 gear (and some lower like 213/200 stuff including a blue wand, but still!). I outdps tons of people now.

    On the one hand, I do agree that it is wrong to take a PuG over a guildie, on the other hand they should be helping you and you should be helping them. It is the reciprocal job of a guildie to ensure that they are not carried by other people that perform better in raids imo.

    I'm sure there's tons of easy stuff you can do to increase your dps. I'm not saying that you should be expected to immediately start rockin' out some 7.5k dps or go spreadsheet every last ounce out of your character (though I'm sure your guildies would love you if you did =-P ) but there are probably some things you can change. Maybe some piece of gear you can pick up, or spec changes, etc. Ask someone for help! Most people are very willing to help you, and don't be afraid to ask questions. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that 2.5k dps is just gear, at least if that's what you pull on bosses that don't die in like 5 seconds. Like... VOA, what did you get there? I've tanked and done 2.5k dps, I'm certain that you can do better! Chin up chap, your GL seems like a good guy, and it seems like a pretty casual guild. Do what you can to help out, and they will help you out!

    Is this rambly enough? Okay, stopping now~
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    On the one hand, I do agree that it is wrong to take a PuG over a guildie, on the other hand they should be helping you and you should be helping them. It is the reciprocal job of a guildie to ensure that they are not carried by other people that perform better in raids imo.
    I agree with the guildie>pugs sentiment, but there has to be a line. Sure, maybe they've got a couple 5K dpsers that can pick up for your slack. However, maybe all the dps is below 4K, with most struggling to make 3.5. The group might have issues getting bosses down in a timely fashion, running healers into mana issues, hitting enrage timers etc.

    Your link is showing tank gear ATM so I can't see your DPS set, but others mentioned lack of enchants and improper gemming. If you expect to get a spot, you had better have your gear as well set up as it can be, as close to hit and expertice caps as possible, etc. Any DPS class/spec in a mix of 200/219 Ilvl gear, properly gemmed and enchanted, should be able to pull over 3K dps in a 10 man raid.

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