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Thread: Spellcaster Maces. For healers... AND DPS?

  1. #1
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    Spellcaster Maces. For healers... AND DPS?

    If a healer needs a spell caster mace that drops, should that healer have priority over a Ele Sham/Boomkin/Spriest?

    Here's the story. Our first Sufferings End dropped off 25Anub this week. (Finally) And we use EPGP for out loot system. One of our Resto Druids had the highest priority, so he gets it. However, a specific person in our guild, the trouble maker, decided to message him during loot distribution and say, "I can't believe you're taking a DPS weapon." And a few other pathetic remarks, that should really warrant a gkick.

    Anywho, the Resto Druid, being the cool kind of guy he is, succumbed to the pressure by this Ele Shaman and passed on it. I got the mace because I was next on the priority list, and I offered numerous times to give back to the rightful person. But he refused because he didn't want to be the target of the drama.

    Now there's confusion in my guild as to what a DPS spell caster weapon is, and what a healer weapon is.

    MY view is: 3 Spell caster DPS classes are able to use maces. And those 3 classes also have healing spec. That is the only reason they are allowed to use maces. There are no spell caster maces with hit rating. (at least, not that I can find) Barb of Tarasque drops off NRB. That is a DPS weapon. It is the DPS spell caster weapon, equivalent of Sufferings End. They are the only 2 spell caster 1 handed weapons in 25ToC/ToGC. One can only be used by DPS, and the other therefore, is for Healers. That is MY view.

    I'd love to know what you all think. I'd especially appreciate a response from Aliena.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Loot drama. Sweet.

    My take.. well, I've always favored guilds that use DKP systems, simply because in my opinion loot council only leads to trouble in the long run. Whether this is open trouble or back talking, stuff like that will happen.

    As such, I also don't think selective loot council should apply. Suffering's End is a good weapon for any caster DPS that's able to use maces as well as healers (remember Naxx's torch, same deal). Why should anyone be excluded from using their DKP on it when it's a clear upgrade without any ifs and buts? They worked for their virtual currency and should be able to spend it any way they like within reason.

    You can never predict drops. While a dagger and a sword may drop next week, they also couldn't drop again for 2 months, and no one should be told to hold out that long when the same stats they want on an item just dropped.

    Also, bear in mind that every caster DPS can use two types of spellcaster weapons. Locks have daggers and swords, mages have daggers and swords, shadow priests have daggers and maces, boomkins have daggers and maces. Paladins have swords and maces, Shamans have daggers and maces. So yes, while every healer can use maces, every healer can also use another weapon proficiency that may have a similarly styled item available. Everyone gets two proficiencies that have useful one-handers. Fair game. (I excluded staffs here, obviously)

    Suffering's End isn't a healer-only weapon or a DPS-only weapon, it's a caster weapon and should be treated as such imho. In Icecrown it'll be a little less muddled up since Blizzard is re-introducing weapon procs and you can make a strong case that a caster DPS should not get a weapon that procs on heal. Hooray for less drama!
    Last edited by Aliena; 11-13-2009 at 03:53 AM.

  3. #3
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    Caster gear is much more meshed now than it was before wrath. Priests, Warlocks, Magi all use basically the same gear(the only diferring stats are hit and mp5, the rest doesn't change much), and that likely extends to weapons for shaman, druids and paladins.

    Mainspec upgrade doesn't mean "healer gear" "dps cloth" anymore. It is, liek said, "Caster gear for casters"

  4. #4
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    Not only weapons but gear in general.
    If it hasn't got hit it's ffa.
    Common sense.
    Basically if no stats are wasted and it's not a clear intermediate upgrade none should be disallowed to roll.

    So, if a piece got a nice amount of spirit, it should go to the priest first and then the shaman even if the shaman is wearing a green because spirit is a waste of stats for the shaman.

    And also, if the mail belt is best in slot for the paladin, better then the plate belt, then you shouldn't give the shaman priority because it's mail.
    If however the mail belt is very good for the paladin but he's really after the plate belt you should give the shaman priority because it's a clear intermediate upgrade.

    (The last one might sprout some discussion but that's how I feel. Even if the paladin gets the plate belt, he still wants the mail one because it makes him better, and for how many shaman does he have to wait to get his best in slot mail belt?)

  5. #5
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    It's not drama with the loot system, it's just drama about who an item is intended for. I have used DKP before, and I personally have seen some serious drama with it, and have yet to see any problems with EPGP in the last 7 months I've been using it.

    This issue still would have came up regardless of the system, because of the person that starting sending harassing tells. This, however is off topic. Ha ha.

    I can see your points, and they do make sense. However, I will still look at spell caster maces as healer weapons, until they bring out a spell caster mace that has hit rating on it. I also believe certain loot is intended for certain classes, just by looking at what is available in an instance.

    I also look at it like this. Talisman of the Heedless Sins, and Mystifying Charm. Both very usable by DPS, only one usable by healers. Allowing DPS the same priority as Healers to get Mystifying Charm means you're giving DPS 2 chances in a 25ToC/ToGC to get the OH. Healers by default, only get 1 chance. And by allowing DPS to take it, that has a huge potential to ruin healer's 1 chance. It's the same for just about every piece of Loot in ToC. There's one thing only DPS can use, and a counterpart that both DPS and healers can use. So healers end up getting shafted when a DPS comes in and snatches up the one thing we can use even though they had a chance to get something that we cannot.

    I think DPS should get their 1 chance for their OH/MH/Ring/Neckpeice/Etc and healers should get to have their 1 chance for OH/Mh/Ring/Neckpeice/Etc. Unless of course, the healer doesn't need that peice, then of course, by all means it should go to a DPS. But you don't have that option with DPS pieces. If a DPS piece drops and they don't need it, great we have another Abyss Crystal for out Gbank, and no upgrade for a healer that may desperately need one. (Which would be especially bad if a DPS didn't need the DPS piece simply because he got a "healer" piece the week before instead of a healer that needed.)

    Edit: And this isn't about greed for loot. That's not why I'm posting this. The healers in our guild will outplay their gear even without upgrades. Because our healers are very exceptional, and a couple are easily the best players on the server. But I've seen a Resto Druid in my guild go without upgrades for weeks and weeks because he was losing them to DPS over and over again. (10ToC/ToGC) And it's just not fair when DPS have twice as many opportunities/chances to receive upgrades, and healers get 1, and have to share that 1 chance with DPS.

    @orcstar: Feral Druids will be able parry before a Paladin will get a Mail piece over a Shaman that could use it in our guild. I actually have never seen any guild allow that. Not trying to sound hostile or anything, lol. Just saying, it would never fly in our guild.
    Last edited by Pavidus; 11-13-2009 at 05:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavidus View Post
    It's not drama with the loot system, it's just drama about who an item is intended for. I have used DKP before, and I personally have seen some serious drama with it, and have yet to see any problems with EPGP in the last 7 months I've been using it.

    This issue still would have came up regardless of the system, because of the person that starting sending harassing tells. This, however is off topic. Ha ha.

    I can see your points, and they do make sense. However, I will still look at spell caster maces as healer weapons, until they bring out a spell caster mace that has hit rating on it. I also believe certain loot is intended for certain classes, just by looking at what is available in an instance.

    I also look at it like this. Talisman of the Heedless Sins, and Mystifying Charm. Both very usable by DPS, only one usable by healers. Allowing DPS the same priority as Healers to get Mystifying Charm means you're giving DPS 2 chances in a 25ToC/ToGC to get the OH. Healers by default, only get 1 chance. And by allowing DPS to take it, that has a huge potential to ruin healer's 1 chance. It's the same for just about every piece of Loot in ToC. There's one thing only DPS can use, and a counterpart that both DPS and healers can use. So healers end up getting shafted when a DPS comes in and snatches up the one thing we can use even though they had a chance to get something that we cannot.

    I think DPS should get their 1 chance for their OH/MH/Ring/Neckpeice/Etc and healers should get to have their 1 chance for OH/Mh/Ring/Neckpeice/Etc. Unless of course, the healer doesn't need that peice, then of course, by all means it should go to a DPS. But you don't have that option with DPS pieces. If a DPS piece drops and they don't need it, great we have another Abyss Crystal for out Gbank, and no upgrade for a healer that may desperately need one. (Which would be especially bad if a DPS didn't need the DPS piece simply because he got a "healer" piece the week before instead of a healer that needed.)
    If you don't want to look at an item based on how useful he can be to those that want it, then there's nothing we can do to help you. The spell hit cap is so easy to hit most spellcasters start dropping it midways into the tiers.

  7. #7
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    Personally as an elemental shaman, I say they add a spellcaster fist weapon or two again. Being able to use Wraith Strike as enhancement spec as well was pretty fuggin' epic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    If you don't want to look at an item based on how useful he can be to those that want it, then there's nothing we can do to help you. The spell hit cap is so easy to hit most spellcasters start dropping it midways into the tiers.
    I never said spell caster maces weren't useful for DPS. I didn't come here for any kind of, "help" either. There isn't anything really to be helped. I know maces can be useful for DPS. I came here to hear other healers who are at a disadvantage of getting upgrades think about the subject. And yes, healers are at a disadvantage when it comes to getting upgrades because they have to share a large amount of their possible upgrades with DPS, and DPS doesn't. And because of that loot gets distributed unevenly over weeks of raiding, regardless of whatever loot system you use.

    Like Aliena said, with the new loot coming out, hopefully this won't be such an issue anymore, but if getting upgrades at a reasonable pace becomes any harder than it already is for healers, then I'm probably just gonna play my lock. I love healing, and I love my lock. But DPS gears up much faster than healers do in new content.

    I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, and if anything I said in here seems that way, then I just fail at forums, like I always do, but it isn't intended. I'm simply here for the discussion, which is also a vent for me.

  9. #9
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    Your guild's general attitude just doesn't go all the way towards maximum benefit :x
    It's not as bad as it used to be, but we're still under a confusing mash of "who can use what", and sincerely? That won't change. Pieces who can be used by only one or two people of a specific spec won't be something common anymore, the only roles who just won't work differently are plate tanks, unless they do with us what they did with ferals, and there'll still be shields to worry about.

  10. #10
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    This is not a case of what is more useful to whom.
    It's about pure yellow jealousy and should be treated as such:
    with contempt

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Your guild's general attitude just doesn't go all the way towards maximum benefit :x
    It's not as bad as it used to be, but we're still under a confusing mash of "who can use what", and sincerely? That won't change. Pieces who can be used by only one or two people of a specific spec won't be something common anymore, the only roles who just won't work differently are plate tanks, unless they do with us what they did with ferals, and there'll still be shields to worry about.
    Heh, tanks, in our experience, have had no trouble gearing up at all. If there's two things we don't have trouble gearing up, it's our tanks, and rogues. Omg rogue loot overkill. Our first time through 10togc, every boss dropped rogue loot like candy on 4th of July, and has done so since we first went in there. Same with 25ToC. There's no end to it. Daggers daggers this, leather leather that. All rogue. And that rogue is my room mate. We'll be DEing rogue gear in the 2nd week of IC's release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    This is not a case of what is more useful to whom.
    It's about pure yellow jealousy and should be treated as such:
    with contempt
    Gonna keep this one short. Something nice,then something not-so-nice.

    Nice: I'm assuming your first language is German, and if it is, then your English is absolutely amazing because it puts my English to shame.

    Not-so-Nice: You're rude. Your post is only accurate if it's possible to be jealous for someone other than yourself.
    Last edited by Pavidus; 11-13-2009 at 05:31 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavidus View Post
    @orcstar: Feral Druids will be able parry before a Paladin will get a Mail piece over a Shaman that could use it in our guild. I actually have never seen any guild allow that. Not trying to sound hostile or anything, lol. Just saying, it would never fly in our guild.
    As long as Blizzard makes gear that's best in slot of another armor class your guild is basically asking the person with the higher armor class to purposely gimp himself.

    Waaaay back in Karazhan I had this same discussion. There was a leather chest from Nightbane. Very good for rogues but also best in slot at that time for enhancement shamans. This one night we killed nightbane and the shaman used his dkp to get this chest. Over a rogue. There was 1 other rogue in raid. He immediately got flamed by all rogues in guild. What was to know though is: 2 rogues had gotten it previously before him. He had nicely passed it. The rogue in the raid was a trial. Those two other rogues passed for Nightbane because they already had the chest. So the shaman was waiting his turn, to get his best in slot item. Even though he passed it to leatherwearers twice and in the end he should have given it away again? After waiting so long for it? That's just not fair. For how many rogues should he have passed that item? 3-10-20?

    You want your people in guild to maximize their performance: if that means getting lower armor class gear, that's part of it.


    And on the note of dps vs healing weapons: for most dps-casters hit is a wasted stat and they're struggling to get less because they have a hard time being not grossly overhitcapped.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    And on the note of dps vs healing weapons: for most dps-casters hit is a wasted stat and they're struggling to get less because they have a hard time being not grossly overhitcapped.
    Yeah, I can understand that, but the problem comes when DPS has a viable alternative that healer classes don't want, and that's the item with hit on it.

    Honestly, I think this topic will become a moot point in cata, with the item changes. Finally us healers will want spirit and caster dps won't (hopefully).

  14. #14
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    That's not exactly a great example. A fresh or trial member isn't going to have as many loot rights as an older member. That's another great thing about EPGP. New members can't join, get a great item, and then gquit next week. EPGP actually stops new members from even being allowed to roll on anything until they pass a threshold (designated by the officers) of Effort Points, that way you cannot question whether someone "earned" any loot they have received, and therefore, it shouldn't be an issue if someone gets 258 Death's Choice and gquits the next day. Because the effort put forth to gain that item has to be made before they can get it.

    In any situation, plate wearers pass on mail until the core raiding group's Shamans don't need it, and likewise with leather and cloth. That means he would only have to pass 2, maybe 3 times. Anymore than that, and I'd be more worried about your group composition rather than how you're doing loot. Passing a few times to the proper class is not unreasonable, and in every guild I've been in, not optional. Recently one of our Shamans that doesn't raid very often offered to pass on a mail healing piece to one of our Paladin healers, voluntarily, because he knows he doesn't raid often enough, so he didn't feel it was justified. Luckily, everyone in our raid group is very sensable when it comes to loot, and only the one ele shaman in our group ever causes drama, which is what sparked me to make this thread.

    I've never played on another server, and I hear sometimes that "unwritten rules" can vary from server to server. Maybe this is one of those things. I've heard that on some servers it's considered ok to roll need on Frozen Orbs for, say your JC daily Icy Prism, and on others, it's not. I don't know though, haven't been on any other servers yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amamaeth View Post
    Yeah, I can understand that, but the problem comes when DPS has a viable alternative that healer classes don't want, and that's the item with hit on it.

    Honestly, I think this topic will become a moot point in cata, with the item changes. Finally us healers will want spirit and caster dps won't (hopefully).
    There's potential for it to become even worse in Cata. Hopefully, they do it right though. There needs to be a definitive line between, tank, melee dps, caster dps, and healers. WTB healing SP vs Sp. =/
    Last edited by Pavidus; 11-13-2009 at 08:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavidus View Post
    That's not exactly a great example. A fresh or trial member isn't going to have as many loot rights as an older member......(snip)'..........In any situation, plate wearers pass on mail until the core raiding group's
    Is very very different from:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pavidus View Post
    @orcstar: Feral Druids will be able parry before a Paladin will get a Mail piece over a Shaman that could use it in our guild. I actually have never seen any guild allow that. Not trying to sound hostile or anything, lol. Just saying, it would never fly in our guild.
    Your first sounds sensible your second is a blanket statement. Exactly this makes my example great.

    I was to spark the discussion: where do you draw the line? First you say whenever there's a class present who can only wear the proper type and next you change your statement: but heeeeyyy I didn't mean trials with that.

    If you change your statement I can't discuss.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavidus View Post
    I also look at it like this. Talisman of the Heedless Sins, and Mystifying Charm. Both very usable by DPS, only one usable by healers. Allowing DPS the same priority as Healers to get Mystifying Charm means you're giving DPS 2 chances in a 25ToC/ToGC to get the OH. Healers by default, only get 1 chance. And by allowing DPS to take it, that has a huge potential to ruin healer's 1 chance. It's the same for just about every piece of Loot in ToC. There's one thing only DPS can use, and a counterpart that both DPS and healers can use. So healers end up getting shafted when a DPS comes in and snatches up the one thing we can use even though they had a chance to get something that we cannot.
    The Talisman is perfectly usable by a healer. Sure, they don't need the +Hit but it is still a very useful item for a healer. Saying "Healers can't use it but DPS can use both" translates into "My guild is using unfair loot rules".

    The right option, assuming the people involved aren't a bunch of selfish jerks and actually consider the good of the guild is "Either role can go for either item, just use your own best judgement". And if your guild is a bunch of selfish jerks, well... you are the one who is chosing to remain.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavidus View Post
    Gonna keep this one short. Something nice,then something not-so-nice.

    Nice: I'm assuming your first language is German, and if it is, then your English is absolutely amazing because it puts my English to shame.

    Not-so-Nice: You're rude. Your post is only accurate if it's possible to be jealous for someone other than yourself.

    Funny thing is, I can't tell if you are being sarcastic. I spent my childhood in the US of A. Swore fealty to the Stars and Stripes while Jimmy Carter was smiling benevolently from his place on the wall. For some weird reason I can't pronounce skvirrel.

    I think you misread what I said. If somebody wins something fair and square under the rules of your loot distribution system then that is that.
    If somebody starts an argument about it then the actualy object of said argument is not relevant anymore. What should be the subject of the discussion is the behaviour of the misbehaved raid member. If it happens once it will happen again. It is either jealousy or selfishness or both.

    I wouldn't rule out DPS from getting a spell hammer.

    In the end it boils down how you view loot. As a reward for successful raiders or as a tool to advance the raid as a group. In neither case spec plays a major role in it. You earned, you get it. Or, you're the one for whom this is the biggest upgrade. I prefer the latter. But if you compare every involved parties equipment stat point by stat point loot distribution would take forever. Even then you'd still have to factor in play style. Common sense is quicker. But common sense has become so unfashionable.

    And judging from the whisper-loot-drama you described, so has courtesy.

    tl;dr
    This question can't be resolved but by common sense.
    Last edited by Mačl; 11-13-2009 at 11:41 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  18. #18
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    Imo, it's really easy:

    If it has hit, it's DPS prio.
    If it has mp5, it's healer prio.
    All the rest is equal bidding imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  19. #19
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    I beg to differ. If it has +sp on it and +crit then it is useful to mee. Either haste, mp5 or spi is welcome. I agree on the +hit(obviously) but +hit is as useful to a hit-capped caster as mp5.

    Priorities don't work. They always cause arguments.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  20. #20
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    No priority is the best option imo. You start putting priorities on one item then someone else will want a priority on another and it can get very messy and silly.

    Let people decide for themselves what is best for them, and if someone makes a bad choice then so be it.
    Rivers know this: there is no hurry. We shall get there some day.

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