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Thread: Evaluating new healers, how do you do it?

  1. #1
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    Evaluating new healers, how do you do it?

    So here's my situation. I play in a casual progression guild. We only raid 25 mans 3 nights a week, but when we raid we work on hard modes etc. We recently picked up a new priest at the recommendation of a few guildies. Now, we don't have class leads, or even role leads, just officers and everyone else. So one of the officers (really 2nd in command) asked for my opinion on the new priest...

    Now, I'm pretty observant when I raid. When we raided with her we do most of our easy content cause she's in mostly naxx gear. The only "hard" content we took her on was yogg+3 so I use that as a frame of reference. I looked at the meters, saw she was really high on it and thought to myself, "that's pretty odd.." So I paid a bit more attention to what was going on and dug a little deeper. She was given the assignment (based on the fact that she was holy with a shadow off spec) to raid heal. Her primarily cast spell was Flash Heal and had a 50% overheal for all our attempts. She also ran herself OOM before phase 2 even started. If you aren't familiar with how yogg goes, phase one is the add phase and there is little to no raid healing needed if your dps is good at interrupting.

    Well I report this information to the officer, saying that I think she's flash heal spamming the tanks during phase 1 and running herself OOM and generally not approaching the encounter and her role in our raid intellegently. Officer asked me to talk to her, stating I knew more about priests then said officer and that maybe I could help. "Of course," I say, I'm more then willing to help out anyone who needs it.

    Here is the problem and the TL: DR sum-up. I approached her as nicely as I could. Said basically 'hey we really like you and think you are a great priest but there's this little problem on yogg that I want to address blahblahblah'

    She did not take it well at all. First she says "well I've been healing since vanilla and I know what I'm doing," and that "we just have different styles of playing." Afterwards she didn't talk to me until just before the raid started (about a good 10 or so minutes) saying, "I just don't know how to handle this info." She seemed genuinely offended that I even tried to critique her.

    So what should I do now? Do I try to talk with her again? Ignore it? Write her off as a lost cause? Was I in the wrong thinking there was a problem? What would you do?
    Last edited by Amamaeth; 11-11-2009 at 08:34 AM.

  2. #2
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    Multiple times over the past 6 months I've run into the same issue and here's how I handle it.

    I ask the priest if they've got a few spare minutes to talk and then I just sit down and politely ask how they play. Like do they prefer FH or Renew as a filler? Simple stuff like that, get them engaged in a conversation about how *they* do things and eventually they'll get comfortable talking with you. Once they seem relaxed, I give some praise of the good things I noted in what they said, and then I give them the tips I have (in a sneaky manner). If they're still not sure, you could try to make them think it was their idea, but odds are if you take the time to get them engaged in this convo, they will be a bit more receptive to your advice.
    The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason. Talga Vassternich.

  3. #3
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    Considering the priest was mostly naxx geared, I'm under the impression the yogg encounter was unfamiliar to the healer. In that situation healers can sometimes fumble and do the wrong thing. As healing is a cooperative activity, it also takes some time to integrate well with the healing team, which can also cause some additional overhealing.

    It's a lot easier to tell the quality of a healer when they are more familiar with the encounter, and when there are fewer healers able to cover for them if they aren't very skilled. A 10-man run, for example. You could argue a heroic is better, but if the group outgears the content then healing is almost unnecessary. :P

    I'd let it go for now, and just gather more data.

  4. #4
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    I would normally agree Bashal, but we've taken her to 3 yogg+3 runs, for a total of 21 attempts (why do we suck at this D: ). I'd figure she should be plenty familiar with it. Also, being assigned to raid healing and then spam healing the tanks is really what threw me off. An occasional heal or two is fine, but with no real raid damage going on I figure a good priest would know to conserve mana for later >_>

  5. #5
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    Any player who gets offended by helpful advice needs to be kicked into shape, in my opinion. I think my reaction would be kind of like this:

    Healer: well I've been healing since vanilla and I know what I'm doing
    Me: I imagine you do know what you're doing. But what you're doing doesn't necessarily work well with the way our guild's healing team operates. I am trying to give you some helpful advice here to help us all mesh better together. If you'd rather not have that advice, I'd suggest you go heal something on your own, because we can't bring people on our raids who aren't team players.

  6. #6
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    I'm no longer holding the knowledge to tell the right "ways" to heal, but you have to watch, basically, for three "healy" things:
    1) Are people dieing due to a lack of healing?(Dps/Tanks being retarded does not apply)
    2) Are the healers going oom too soon?(Generally, "too soon" is "at all")
    3) Are they using their cooldowns when it's appropriate?
    ---
    4) Are the healers killing themselves?(this ain't strict to healing)


    Most of the other things to look at are more global than just healing, and frankly, if you don't know how to heal properly, stick to expecting results and let someone else handle the methods.
    Your healer being offended is just your healer lacking some slaps to the face. Can't do much here.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amamaeth View Post
    I would normally agree Bashal, but we've taken her to 3 yogg+3 runs, for a total of 21 attempts (why do we suck at this D: ). I'd figure she should be plenty familiar with it. Also, being assigned to raid healing and then spam healing the tanks is really what threw me off. An occasional heal or two is fine, but with no real raid damage going on I figure a good priest would know to conserve mana for later >_>
    Hmmm, ok that's different. I guess what to do about it comes down to whether or not you want to keep the priest around. If you do, then I'd go with what Fealthas suggested.

  8. #8
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    Well, I evalute priests based on 3 things:

    1)moves out of the fire
    2)heals while on the move
    3)moves to the tank when an add spawns and moves to you
    4)uses Binding Heal/Fade/Pain Suppression/Guardian Spirit/Inner Focus
    5)doen't run himself OOM

    If for example somebody has 0 Binding Heals during Faction Champions then this Priest still has a lot to learn.

    Now if somebody has been healing since vanilla he won't run himself OOM. Managing your mana was the biggest challenge back then. We had healer rotations and Innervate management back then.

    This priest was undergeared, true. But with very little effort you can nowadays get yourself up to Ulduar25 gear.

    When it comes to healing style, everybody has his own. I also am a little bit tetchy when mine is questioned. But whatever your style is YOU DO NOT RUN YOURSELF OOM. If there is nothing to do for you then wand. Grow a beard. Raise a chicken. But don't spend mana you can't spare. Managing your mana regen CDs is also very important. Even if you don't need it, popping Hymn of Hope can be a huge help for DPS. Just know when you can pop it again.

    Have you asked that healer if Holy was the second spec and the primary spec was Disc? I've run myself OOM in my offspec Holy simply because didn't have the experience with how Holy has changed since T5 content. Also the raid healing role could have been a bit uncomfortable.

    It's up to you if you want to invest time into this healer.
    Last edited by Mačl; 11-11-2009 at 09:18 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
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    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  9. #9
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    It sounds like she's been confronted for something like this, before, judging from her defensive response to you. Perhaps you should ask her advice about some of the fights, for a while, and get more of a feel for her "style", instead of the "you're great, but...approach"? Just a thought...I know I really hate the back-handed compliment, then put you on the spot, type of leadership. But then, I'm a rebel...hah!

    My question to you is, why not gather the healers together, and discuss strat with all of them--just get their ideas on how best to work together. I'm not much of a raider myself, but it seems to me that your priest might be more receptive to the advice of another healer, before someone who's holding a "guild officer" stick.

    There is the point you made, though, about the raid assignment. If she's to heal the raid, and you, as officer/rl, think she should not heal the tank, then simply tell her that. If she continues going oom to throwing heals at the tank, she's not following orders, and should be benched for that, or whatever action the officers deem appropriate. That has nothing to do with style--that is not following orders, and that means someone in the group who can't be depended upon.

    I don't envy your role, but it is you, and your fellow officers who must decide whether to expend the time and patience on this priest, or cut her loose. It sounds to me like she's still in the "adjustment" phase of being in a new group, but, that's merely an impression. If she's trying to impress everyone with her healing prowess, that's one thing. However, if she's just a self-centered diva, then give her a "blue m&m", and gkick her out the door...
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  10. #10
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    i am generally the 'healer' assigner in my raids currently since one of our other officers who was a healer is no longer one so its just me When we deal with new healers we generally try and take them on a run first thing to kinda test out there healy abilities...I try and pay attention to ALL healing classes but i dont understand pallys and priests but i am learning them slowly so i know a few things so if a healer pally/ priest doesnt know what they are doing i will generally either direct them to someone or i try my best to solve the issue but if its a class i know very well like druids and they arent doing their job like using healing touch instead of a rejuv + nourish or something than yes i will definatly say something and tell them what they can fix and this is what you do now and then i usually ask them if they ahve some kind of a healing mod or something since its the easiest way to go these days.... and if we cant get them into a raid i usually will try and go on a run with them as a boomkin or send a tank on a run with them and see how well they can keep a five man up if they have troubles and just like pple die we are gonna have issues in a raid but thats just what i do...or i try and do anyway lol

  11. #11
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    I ask the priest if they've got a few spare minutes to talk and then I just sit down and politely ask how they play. Like do they prefer FH or Renew as a filler? Simple stuff like that, get them engaged in a conversation about how *they* do things and eventually they'll get comfortable talking with you. Once they seem relaxed, I give some praise of the good things I noted in what they said, and then I give them the tips I have (in a sneaky manner). If they're still not sure, you could try to make them think it was their idea, but odds are if you take the time to get them engaged in this convo, they will be a bit more receptive to your advice.[/QUOTE]


    I really like this suggestion. I have run into some of the same problems myself with healers/dps, where they have the gear, but aren't doing what they should be. It usually falls to me to approach them and try to help them, and I never know how to do it. I usually try to explain the fight in better detail to them and kindly tell them what they themselves should be doing during the fight. Some players are very eager to learn and improve themselves (which instantly raises my respect for them, especially if they follow through), but others don't take criticism so well and will sit and argue with me (something I don't take so well). I have made more than one person leave our guild due to this predicament. From now on though, I will try out what you suggested Fealthas, but if they're still unwilling to take any advice then I won't hesitate to kick them. It's not worth making your whole raid suffer for one person.

    As for Holy priests, I can't give a whole lot of advice since I don't play one myself, but I do play a Holy paladin, so I have the perspective of a healer. Perhaps she's just trying to impress everyone with her heals? It could be that since she's newer to the guild that she feels a little out-of-place and just wants to show her worth. If she continues to go oom and tank heal when it's obviously unnecessary, then don't take her to the harder content anymore. Test her out in the heroics and 10 mans. That's usually what I do for new people. This will also give her a chance to get to know you all better and she'll feel more comfortable talking to you guys. Also, she might correct the problems she's have herself. I know I learned a lot (and still am) just by trial and error (I'm not saying that's the best way to learn, but at least you remember it then )

  12. #12
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    Maybe you should make the healers join some /healer channel, and sort out the healing them self. Most of the time healers will agree on what to do, no matter what the raid leader says anyways.

  13. #13
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    Just right off the bat- "we have a different playing style", shows that no matter how good the player is at their job, you/guild, and her are not going to mesh. If it was a guild application run, then more the better to shake hands and part ways (avoiding future drama is better than adding a skilled player who doesn't vaule meshing).

    The bad thing here is if I'm reading it right- she's already in the guild. This is the kind of thing that causes my guild to run 2 trial runs with a player before accepting them in the guild, in case a situation arises that shows a clash of personality.

    I do believe here that the issue isn't the performance of the healer, but rather the player's stubbornness set in their own ways and view. If they won't listen to ideas that make them a better player, will they ever improve? Will this player's attitude hold back the guild? You will have to answer those questions on your own, and judge her accordingly.

  14. #14
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    Maybe you should approach it from another angle.

    Say that you noticed that she was really high on the healing meters which is commendable (yes i know it's not really but a little ego boost doesn't hurt). Then say that you noticed she was healing the tanks a lot in P1. Hopefully this will warrant a repsone such as: "they were the only ones taking damage so i through them some heals" or "yeah so i healed them". Then you just need to kindly inform her that she needs to respect the healing assigns and save her mana for the later phases.

  15. #15
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    Maybe you should play with people that aren't children. =p

    In our raids, a problem arises. "Healer X you're running OOM in p1, fix it."

    There's no insult in that statement. Healer X fixes it or we fix it for them.

    State the problem, if the person in question needs help, they ask for it.

    People getting offended about their performance in a video game is dumb.
    Either play to win, or shut up and lose.

  16. #16
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    I almost said GearScore ... lol joking....

    there's a interesting thread in general discussion, what makes a good tank.
    most of the answers apply across classes.

    here's my top ten.

    know your toon.
    know your class.
    know your spec.
    know your role.
    know the fight.
    don't stand in fire.
    be willing to learn.
    be willing to help.
    give more than you take.
    be low drama.

    Do these you will be a good tank, healer, dps, guildie, friend, pugger, player and person.

    i can see several of my 10 where this healer seems to come up short. if you think you want to help this healer. it may work. but i see drama coming.

    Doc

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liongale View Post
    The bad thing here is if I'm reading it right- she's already in the guild. This is the kind of thing that causes my guild to run 2 trial runs with a player before accepting them in the guild, in case a situation arises that shows a clash of personality.
    We do kind of the same thing. We'll do a heroic or a 10 man to see if they are decent enough for that, but after that our guild invites them and puts them on trial. They are then invited to 25 man content if we need them so we can see how they mesh with our core group and if they can handle the harder content. The person in question is currently on trial.

    Thanks for all the replies so far

  18. #18
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    I think with this kind of thing, sometimes it helps to divide the behavior from the person.

    What I mean is, when someone has only had 1 or 2 attempts at a fight they are learning, they haven't had much of a chance to really absorb what is going on. When you come out in a tell and say *YOU* need to change the way *YOU* play, it only adds more stress, and the focus of attention on that one player leads to defensiveness.

    When I am running a raid, and I think that someone is doing something that is causing wipes or difficulties, I make a point to do two things:

    1) keep it positive
    2) separate the person from the behavior by giving the message to the entire raid, so in your case I would say something like this:

    "Hey I noticed a few of our healers were going OOM during that phase of the fight. I know our tanks are squishy (of course, depending on the sense of humor of your tanks :P ), but save your mana until they really need a heal, just keep hots up on them, alright? We need enough mana to last through the whole fight."

    See if that helps. If you are still noticing that there's a problem, check their spell usage and their gear/gems/enchant choices. Do they make sense? Also, I would wait until they get more familiar with a fight, and get more gear, and see how they are doing.

    If you are noticing a lot of overhealing, see if you get a chance, send someone who has bona fides (like, say, your completely overgeared healing lead with tons of respect in the guild) and have them have a One on One with this priest about overheals, cancelcasting, and sticking to assignments. Hopefully something constructive comes out of this.

    Calling someone on the carpet during a raid, either in vent, raid chat, or in tells, is going to cause drama.

  19. #19
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    I'm a real casual player and fill tank, heal, and dps roles. One of the ways I gauge a decent healer is use a warlock who spams life tap. If they can pay enough attention in a fight to keep a warlock topped off or near it while healing me then they've got a place in any run I go on. I've run with warlocks and told them abuse that button and they've actually told me that they've run with healers that asked them to be a little more prudent in the use of life tap. Failtastic healers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by firedog25 View Post
    I'm a real casual player and fill tank, heal, and dps roles. One of the ways I gauge a decent healer is use a warlock who spams life tap. If they can pay enough attention in a fight to keep a warlock topped off or near it while healing me then they've got a place in any run I go on. I've run with warlocks and told them abuse that button and they've actually told me that they've run with healers that asked them to be a little more prudent in the use of life tap. Failtastic healers.
    fail ...

    i just ran a H-AN with a lock that life tapped down to 20% two times, on the same boss. third time i let them die.
    a healer is not a mana pool for a lock.
    healer needs to keep tank alive, keep themselves alive, then worry about dps.
    if the healer is bored heal pets.

    to expect a healer to top off a 'lock life tapping is like waiting for a resser to run back after a wipe. almost as bad as not eating, expecting the heals to top you off then drink ....EPIC FAIL

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