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Thread: Getting setup for Icecrown?

  1. #1
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    Getting setup for Icecrown?

    A bit about me, I am a Feral Bear which main tanks 10 mans for my guild. I do try to get into 25s during the week, but it's hit or miss. When in 25s I do not mind eithe rmain or offtanking, I am normally asked to Main Tank and I am ok with this.

    I was part of a group doing Uld 25, but my work hours of changed, so I doubt I'll be able to get upgrades from there. My primary sources of upgrades right now are thus, VoA, ToC, and Ony.

    I am am asking for an armory rating just to double check if I overlooked something.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    I have plans for most of my slots, but I am kinda stuck on my trinkets. I have double brewfest also I can swap in, but I'd really like to eventually move beyond a item level 200 trinket heh.

    -Fenier

  2. #2
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    Historically, as a general rule tanks stack EHP for progression content, so do whatever you can to max that between now and then imo. Fight mechanics may prove otherwise, but until those are experienced, go with EHP imo.

    However, I also don't really know much about bears.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  3. #3
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    You need to replace the green gems with straight stamina ones and most/all of the purple can go that way as well. Keep the helm as agi/stam to maintain the meta requirement. 28.5k in caster unbuffed is pretty low for a progression tank even at a 10 man level.

    Glyph of Indomitability - Item - World of Warcraft is a pretty strong melee fight tanking trinket if you really need to replace one of your current trinkets. Kalon did a two part trinket discussion located here:
    ThinkTank: [Druid, General]Trinkets, tanking and you
    ThinkTank: [General] Trinkets, tanking and you part 2 - the answers

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    Quote Originally Posted by geros View Post
    You need to replace the green gems with straight stamina ones and most/all of the purple can go that way as well. Keep the helm as agi/stam to maintain the meta requirement. 28.5k in caster unbuffed is pretty low for a progression tank even at a 10 man level.
    I have been considering the Green gems, however I disagree with you on the purple / blue ones. I am not tanking Hard Modes, while I am aware high stamina is very useful for Hard Modes, I am running anywhere from 47-52k normally, and I find that to be sufficient for normal 10 mans, and even on 25s I still retain a 5k~ lead over any non druid tank.

  5. #5
    Well, I'll be very frank here...by and large you can get away with pretty much anything in normal modes. I think that fact sometimes provides a false sense of security to tanks in terms of a, "Well, it worked for this, it must be right." mentality.

    But if you're asking from a progression-minded, pushing your limits, going as far as you can standpoint you'll want to seriously consider pushing your EH as high as you can, getting a feel for the encounters, then considering tweaking your stats from there. We're not sure how hard Icecrown bosses are going to hit in the various modes, but 47-52k is too low or on the low end for high-end stuff right now, so it's reasonable to assume that it'll probably be shaky even in normal ICC 10.

    Unless, of course, it's as forgiving as ToC 10 currently is, in which case you'll probably be just fine with the upgrades you get along the way. Different content demands different gearing goals.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post

    We're not sure how hard Icecrown bosses are going to hit in the various modes, but 47-52k is too low or on the low end for high-end stuff right now, so it's reasonable to assume that it'll probably be shaky even in normal ICC 10.

    I would find it really surprising if Blizzard were to expect tanks going into ICC10 Normal to be "shaky" when sitting at 47-52k buffed. Their philosophy these days seems to be that normal mode, particularly in the 10-man version, is accessible by most anybody geared to the level of the current tier.

    For example, I have a mix of toc25 normal and toc10 gear. My guild clears toc10,25, and totgc10. I am raidbuffed between 47-49k, depending on buffs available. Surely I am geared to begin ICC10 normal, otherwise Blizzard would be assuming that tanks entering ICC10 normal would have access to Totgc10 and totgc25 gear, which is not accurate in any case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenier View Post
    I have been considering the Green gems, however I disagree with you on the purple / blue ones. I am not tanking Hard Modes, while I am aware high stamina is very useful for Hard Modes, I am running anywhere from 47-52k normally, and I find that to be sufficient for normal 10 mans, and even on 25s I still retain a 5k~ lead over any non druid tank.
    I'll disagree with you on the purple gems again because we're not talking about ToC normal. We're talking about Icecrown and progression raiding advice.

    Chill of the Throne is going to sigificantly cut down your avoidance levels and once that happens, adding more avoidance is not nearly as effective as it was prior to CotT due to the nature of avoidance scaling (which was unsuccesfully combated by DR's in WOTLK). Taking that 5k lead and making it an 8-10k lead on your fellow tanks very well might provide a significant enough buffer to survive an extra attack over your raids other tanks. That will be the name of the game in icecrown.

  8. #8
    I would find it really surprising if Blizzard were to expect tanks going into ICC10 Normal to be "shaky" when sitting at 47-52k buffed.
    47k buffed for a bear isn't even ToC 10 geared. (For reference, I'm 58k buffed in EH gear, and I have zero hard mode items and don't even have full ToC 25 gear.) 52k I'm not sure about. Maybe ToC 10 geared.

    The 5-man instance will be dropping 232 items, so who knows. But GC has stated that ICC "will be hard", so it's difficult to say. I can say with some certainty, again, that I believe that many tanks have been "spoiled" by how easy ToC normal modes really are...which is good because it's more accessible to new tanks, but I think ICC may be a rude awakening.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    47k buffed for a bear isn't even ToC 10 geared. (For reference, I'm 58k buffed in EH gear, and I have zero hard mode items and don't even have full ToC 25 gear.) 52k I'm not sure about. Maybe ToC 10 geared.

    The 5-man instance will be dropping 232 items, so who knows. But GC has stated that ICC "will be hard", so it's difficult to say. I can say with some certainty, again, that I believe that many tanks have been "spoiled" by how easy ToC normal modes really are...which is good because it's more accessible to new tanks, but I think ICC may be a rude awakening.
    Ya, our feral druid in full EH gear is at like 66k or something absurd... I remember when he hit SI he was like 300hps short of 100k, it was sickening.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by geros View Post
    Chill of the Throne is going to sigificantly cut down your avoidance levels and once that happens, adding more avoidance is not nearly as effective as it was prior to CotT due to the nature of avoidance scaling (which was unsuccesfully combated by DR's in WOTLK). Taking that 5k lead and making it an 8-10k lead on your fellow tanks very well might provide a significant enough buffer to survive an extra attack over your raids other tanks. That will be the name of the game in icecrown.
    Then again, it may not. They flat out stated they are lowering the amount each boss hits for, but are increasing how often they hit. Lets take Anub 10, hits for 15-20k roughly, and most normal mode encounters do not hit for more then that range. If they already think that is to hard, and they are lowering it, then 45k is likely enough to withstand 3 full melee rounds. Again this varies by encounter but you get the idea.

    I am simply not sold on the fact that for doing the content I am inquiring about, that excessive stamina is going to be required going forward.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenier View Post
    Then again, it may not. They flat out stated they are lowering the amount each boss hits for, but are increasing how often they hit. Lets take Anub 10, hits for 15-20k roughly, and most normal mode encounters do not hit for more then that range. If they already think that is to hard, and they are lowering it, then 45k is likely enough to withstand 3 full melee rounds. Again this varies by encounter but you get the idea.

    I am simply not sold on the fact that for doing the content I am inquiring about, that excessive stamina is going to be required going forward.
    Careful though, they said that they won't hit as hard as they WOULD have, but still harder than current content.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    47k buffed for a bear isn't even ToC 10 geared. (For reference, I'm 58k buffed in EH gear, and I have zero hard mode items and don't even have full ToC 25 gear.) 52k I'm not sure about. Maybe ToC 10 geared.

    The 5-man instance will be dropping 232 items, so who knows. But GC has stated that ICC "will be hard", so it's difficult to say. I can say with some certainty, again, that I believe that many tanks have been "spoiled" by how easy ToC normal modes really are...which is good because it's more accessible to new tanks, but I think ICC may be a rude awakening.
    It wouldn't make sense for the Normal IC 10 to require gear greater then 232 in say 75% of your slots. Just like it wouldn't make sense for IC 25 to require higher then 245 in most slots.

    Just because IC is 'harder' doesn't actually imply at all that it will be in damage to the tank, as it's been stated that high tank damage isn't something they happen to like - which is the entire reason for Chill of the Throne.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Careful though, they said that they won't hit as hard as they WOULD have, but still harder than current content.
    Yes but current content varies drastically in terms of damage per hit, from 9-12k on Lord J, to upwards of 20 on Ony and Anub.

    It would really depend on what baseline they use and what other abilities tanks will have to deal with. There is very much likely a reason they are turning Enrage into a Cooldown with the T10 armor bonus, I doubt they'd do that for no reason.

  14. #14
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    It's exactly the point. The bosses probably aren't going to hit for 45k after mitigation in normal modes because they threw in CotT. I'd say 20k is a pretty reasonable assumption though.

    So right now you'd survive 2 20k hits in a row and die on the third. I'm assuming 55% or so avoidance so 45% chance to be hit, the probability of getting hit 3x in a row is ~9% (.45 x .45 .45). Drop that avoidance to 35% (65% hit chance) and that chance has increased to 27.5%! It is easy with gear currently available to increase your hp to >= 60k raid buffed and that will allow you to take 4 hits in a row. That reduces your chance to have 4 hits land in a row and kill you to ~17.8%. Think about this and then add in unavoidable special attacks a la gormok.

    No one knows exactly what future content holds but we always know that increasing our time to live on progression content is the most important. Just because current content damage/avoidance levels allow you to tank with whatever gear you'd like doesn't mean future content will be as forgiving. Even if the content is forgiving stacking stamina is advised for progression. It gives healers a larger buffer to work with.

  15. #15
    Forgive us if we're answer the wrong question, though. When you say "progression" we're all thinking of moving as far ahead as you can, hard modes, etc etc. But like I said before, if we're just talking about 10-man normal modes you can really just get away with using whatever upgrades some your way and gemming them as you see fit.

    That's not meant to be a slight or anything against that level of raiding. Just saying that it doesn't demand the same gearing focus that hard modes/progression do.

  16. #16
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    So far from what we've seen of Icecrown normal encounters, the only fight that really stresses tanks is Sindragosa. Marrowgar is vaguely hard-hitting but not insanely so, the rotter twins don't hit hard and are more mechanics-based, none of the add fights are huge stresses on the tanks, and...that's about it right now that we know of.

    Currently the biggest source of damage on tanks isn't physical in Icecrown - it's magic. Almost every boss has a big magic damage special. This means that avoidance is very much not useful, at least so far as we've seen. That doesn't mean that will be the case for every encounter, but the point is being made that if you don't know what you'll face, the safest thing to stack is stamina. Avoidance and armor are both not useful against magic damage, threat may or may not be an issue, adds may or may not be an issue - but stamina 'works' against everything. Furthermore, frost resistance is really good against Sindragosa - so keep those polar sets handy.

    Now, when we know more? That might totally change. But until then, if you're asking for advise on what to do currently based on not knowing very many mechanics, most everyone is going to answer stamina because it'll be more applicable than anything else.

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