The EH & TDR Calculator found here:
TankSpot - Calculator
Asks for a value for "avoidance" and the instructions given say to reach the proper value by adding together the values for dodge, parry, and chance to be missed. How does adding together three percentage values who are subject to each other produce a number with a meaningful value?
for example: The odds that I am going to draw a heart and then draw a queen in two successive draws from a full deck are 7.69% of 25% of 100, or 1.9%. The number 32.69 that I would get from adding the 7.6 and 25 together is meaningless.
You're thinking of it wrong. The number 32.69 is the chance that you will draw a queen or a heart. If you draw all 52 cards, then you will have drawn a heart or a queen (well queen of hearts blah blah, but you get the point) 32.69% of the time.Originally Posted by Nephelai
So what they're asking you to do is add up the odds that on a single attack you will either dodge, parry, or miss.
Yes but none the less if my chance to be missed is 15 percent, my chance to dodge is 25 percent, and my chance to parry is 20 percent, then my chance on a single attack of avoiding is 49 percent (I would be hit by 80 percent of 75 percent of 85 percent of attacks). Adding them together I would get 60 which means nothing.
The percentages are not dependant on eachother, when the attack swings, it calculates miss first, then I think dodge, then parry (I don't know the precise order of calculations, but there's an order, block is last, pretty sure hit is first) but none of them are interdependant upon eachother. Each attack can only be missed parried or dodged.
When he attacks you with a single swing, it's not an and statment, it's an or statement... idk where you're getting the multiplicitive adding from, it's additive.
Thats not right.. they are mutually exclusive. You are correct that the way to visualize it is in rolls happening in succession (math says the order of the rolls is irrelevant). BUT, they are mutually exclusive events, there is no value in dodging, being missed, and parrying, the same attack. So if we conceptualize the rolls as happenning, hit, dodge, then parry... then the dodge roll will only be important when the hit roll hits (or 85 percent of the time if 15 percent chance to be missed) and the parry roll will only be important when the dodge roll fails to dodge (or 15 percent of 85 percent of all incoming attacks). The number you get by adding them together would only mean something if getting 2 values to roll in your favor on a single attack meant something.
Ah ha! It all makes sense now. I was correct, but my explaination was wrong/misleading.
Edit: correct in that it is additive, wrong in that there's a check order, it's a table! duh!
Last edited by Aggathon; 11-08-2009 at 10:28 PM.
In all my lurking I never saw that thread, or even noticed anyone discussing things in a way that seemed to take the table concept into account (of course its possible that some mention of the tables were made but I didn't notice since I didn't understand that the calculations were done in that manner).
Of course that still dosen't completely clarify the question for this, because the table could be designed in such a way that the values are weighted the same as they would be if viewing successive roles, and the values could be weighted as if they didn't. Unfortunately I don't see anything in that thread that explains if the avoidance values are weighted in the table in a manner relative to each other, or if they get their full percentage carved out in the table in a manner that would make them additive.
My guess is that it is a 5 digit table (for %s). I've seen no evidence that it is not additive, mainly due to combat logs that over long durations of time show very close to the %s found on the paper doll of how many times you dodge/block/parry/miss etc. I think the only order is the order in which things get knocked off the table if you're unhittable, and I'm 99% sure block is the first to go.
Also if it wasn't additive then you'd always be taking a % of something left, and therefore getting unhittable, and thus anub'arak add tanking, would be impossible.
I always had a problem with discussions of the unhittable concept for that very reason (in my mind you could only regress towards extremely small odds of getting hit, which could be good enough, but which aren't truly "unhittable") I linked to the other thread discussing the lua program calculations, but I still have alot of reading to do before this approach to the calculation will "feel right," having allways thought in terms of the short circuit approach in the past.
Just think of your miss, dodge, parry, block as chunks, that are aligned filling up the 100% of possibilities, every attack has. Even growing bigger than the 100% /102,6%, for example when using shield block.
In classic wow, when crushing blows were around, it would have meant that you can't negotiate them 100%.
I think i read the following - don't ask me where, long time ago:
Blizzard is doing it this way because of server load. Every attack means generating one random number, when using a combat table. Random number generation takes a lot of calculation power. If every single attack would be a whole bunch of random numbers, Blizz would have to buy many more servers - not even speaking of network loads to communicate those calculated values.
Even more:
If it were like you stated, Blizzard had no need to introduce Chill of the Throne.
Further read:
Attack table - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
You could get rid of crushing blows if you had 102.4% miss/dodge/parry block. Crushing blows were behind all them all in the combat table so you could push them off if you had enough
Xianth <Seraphim> - 10-man hard mode progression guild
Context, sir! Context!
I've read that as well.
As I understand it if it was a check system they'd have to rng a number for each check.
As a table it only has to rng one number, that number corresponds to an area on the combat table.
From Wowwiki's attack table entry.
Miss Dodge Parry Glancing Blow* Block Critical hit Crushing Blow† Ordinary hit
"This is the table that governs a melee attack by a mob and a melee auto attack by a player.
The tables are laid out in descending order of the precedence of one attack result over another. That is to say, the entries at the top of the table take precedence over the entries below them. This precedence order is from Blizzard, and as such is accurate. What this table means is this:
- Every melee attack (except for yellow-damage special attacks dealt by players, as described in the next section) has a chance to miss, to be dodged, to be parried, to be blocked, to be a glancing blow, to be a critical, and to be a crushing blow. Anything left over is an ordinary hit.
- The chances listed in your general spellbook tab (for you to Dodge, Parry, or Block) are absolute percentages. If you have a listed dodge chance of 4.5%, then on average 4.5% of all melee attacks made against you by a mob of equal level will be dodged, not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.
- Some melee attacks have a 0% chance for some of these attack results; e.g., an auto-attack made by a player has a 0% chance of being a crushing blow, an attack made by a mob has a 0% chance of being a glancing blow, an attack made against a player without a shield has a 0% chance of being blocked, etc..
- For mob and white-damage melee attacks, there is no such thing as a blocked crushing blow, a parried crit, a missed glancing blow, etc.. All of these possible attack results are mutually exclusive.
- If the total chances of all the entries above the bottom of the table reach or exceed 100%, the attack cannot be an ordinary hit.
- If the total combined chance of a miss, dodge, parry, or block is 100% or higher (as in the case of a well-geared paladin using Holy Shield), not only can the attack not be an ordinary hit, the attack also cannot be a crit or a crushing blow."
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