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Thread: Wotlk Fury Warrior Guide

  1. #41
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    You didn't take into account, that there isn't just a "after 8s all skills reset their CDs"-button. If you want to compare both rotations, you must take all the skills, you can use in t seconds, not only say "this is rotation a, it has to be 8s.", because the BT/WW delay is more... complex.
    (The BS procc is, if you want to make it "easy" right in this form, practically it's more complex, but to compare both, you can do it liks this.(But WW has a 40% chance, to procc it. (Two hits)))
    I don't understand, how you get to a .5 second higher duration.
    You've a 1.5s delay for BT or WW after slamming.

    Could be, that im totally wrong, but imho i'm not
    (Not really concentrated, sorry)

  2. #42
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    This is just a preliminary post and I will be editing it once I get done fully analyzing your math and doing some math of my own.

    I think one thing that your calculations are not displaying is that the DPS you do in a 8.0s rotation vs a 8.5s rotations accurately on a long enough timeline. The problem with the 2 slam rotation is that you delay the use of BT.

    0.0 WW
    1.5 Slam by slamming here you delay the use of BT by 1.5 sec
    3.0 BT

    So letís say that you have a fight that lasts 5 minutes, which is 300 seconds.

    That means that if you use BT the moment it comes off cooldown every time you will use BT 75 times.

    And if you use WW in the same manner you will use it 37 times (37.5 but you have to round down)
    WW has a 20% chance to proc bloodsurge, so 0.20*37=7.4 (rounding to 7)

    That means that means over the course of the fight you will delay use of BT by 7 GCDs 7*1.5=10.5s
    10.5/4=2.625 (round to 2) BTís lost by slamming after WW.

    Now letís see what you gain:

    Of those 7 bloodsurge procs, 20% of them will also see a proc from the BT. 7*0.20=1.4 (round to 1)

    You gain 1 extra slam over the course of the fight.

    2 BTs > 1 slam

    Unfortunately these numbers are definitely skewed because of the fact that they do not take in to account bloodsurge procs from HS. When I get back from lunch I will see what I can do about possibly modeling HSís affect on the DPS comparison.

  3. #43
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    I must be the only fury in WoW who feels that Imp Cleave is not an option but should be standard. Take a look at boss fights involving multiple targets and then realize that in those fights you replace HS with Cleave.

    Without that talent Cleave will not do as much overall damage on one target as HS would on your current kill target. Imp Cleave will mean you hit 2-3 targets at the same time, each one getting hit by a HS.

    Another talent often overlooked is Heroic Fury. This is not strictly a PvP talent. It works well in fights like XT, Iron Council, Hodir, Freya, Acidmaw/Dreadscale, Icehowl, Jarraxus and Faction Champs to get back into position as soon as possible by 1) breaking any immobility and 2) refreshing intercept. Its essentially a second intercept without waiting for a cooldown.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taiva View Post
    I must be the only fury in WoW who feels that Imp Cleave is not an option but should be standard. Take a look at boss fights involving multiple targets and then realize that in those fights you replace HS with Cleave.


    Another talent often overlooked is Heroic Fury. This is not strictly a PvP talent. It works well in fights like XT, Iron Council, Hodir, Freya, Acidmaw/Dreadscale, Icehowl, Jarraxus and Faction Champs to get back into position as soon as possible by 1) breaking any immobility and 2) refreshing intercept. Its essentially a second intercept in between cooldowns.

    the problem with saying imp cleave should be standard is that there are fights that do not have adds and that means you don't use cleave. currently imp cleave is amazing and pretty much the standard in ToC because every fight has some part that will allow for the use of cleave. but this isn't always going to happen. it can change from instance to instance


    I never really found heroic fury to be amazingly useful, mostly because I never really found my self in situations where I would be wishing my intercept was off cooldown. on fights in large rooms that require lots of movement between adds I could see it being useful, but for most encounters, not so much

  5. #45
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    I found that the points in heroic fury (although useful) can be better used elsewhere, which is why I would think people classify it as a pvp talent.

    I have to ask, how exactly is it useful in Jarraxus, Icehowl, acidmaw/dreadscale, Iron Council, and Freya?
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    I found that the points in heroic fury (although useful) can be better used elsewhere, which is why I would think people classify it as a pvp talent.

    I have to ask, how exactly is it useful in Jarraxus, Icehowl, acidmaw/dreadscale, Iron Council, and Freya?
    Have you ever had to run away from Jarraxus, Freya, and the dwarf in IC and wanted to get back in with intercept on cooldown? It can happen. Surely you've been debuffed by Freya or needed to get to a tree in a second but your intercept is down from doing one or the other. Jarraxus loves to set melee on fire once in a while and we don't just stand in there and burn the other melee. And let's not forget the dwarf in IC with his AOE attack.

    And you should know that Acidmaw has this unending need to poison melee then whirl us out of position. I've had it happen twice in a row many times and my intercept was on cooldown the second time while poisoned. Heroic Fury ignores the poison and allows us to intercept back and dps Acidmaw while waiting for a poison cleanse.

    And Icehowl loves to knockback once in a while, this allows you to use intercept to get back and dps him more often than just running back every 3rd time he knocks back.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    the problem with saying imp cleave should be standard is that there are fights that do not have adds and that means you don't use cleave. currently imp cleave is amazing and pretty much the standard in ToC because every fight has some part that will allow for the use of cleave. but this isn't always going to happen. it can change from instance to instance


    I never really found heroic fury to be amazingly useful, mostly because I never really found my self in situations where I would be wishing my intercept was off cooldown. on fights in large rooms that require lots of movement between adds I could see it being useful, but for most encounters, not so much
    And I suppose all those Ulduar trash pulls were single target pulls?

  8. #48
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    I can't say I've ever had any of those issues... how often do you use your intercept in a fight?
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    This is just a preliminary post and I will be editing it once I get done fully analyzing your math and doing some math of my own.
    Off-Topic, but don't you mean, you should open another thread? Would be nice imho, to hold the "spam" out of this thread.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quietsch View Post
    I don't understand, how you get to a .5 second higher duration.
    You've a 1.5s delay for BT or WW after slamming.
    The .5s longer duration of the rotation come through the additional 1s gap after the second Bloodthirst to the next WW, that is "filled" with the additional Slam.
    The picture I postet before is not accessible anymore (don't know why) but think of the following:
    0s:WW-> 1.5s:Slam-> 3s:BT-> 4.5s:2.5s gab for Slam or other stuff -> 7s:BT -> 8.5s:end of rotation and next WW

    That is of course only possible if Slam procs after WW (40% procrate for Bloodsurge there, that is interesting thanks).

    The other rotation would be:
    0s:WW-> 1.5s:BT-> 3s:2.5s gab for Slam or other stuff -> 5.5s:BT -> 7s: -> 1s gap not usable -> 8s:end of rotation and next WW

    So each time you use Slam after WW, I would have thought the next rotation is delayed 0.5 seconds.
    And thus the BT is delayed 0.5 seconds too or am I wrong?

    I do see, that this is a bit more complex than I thought.

    Ufff I don't think I can go through this anymore today, to long a day. I will think about it again tomorrow and see what you guys did come up with.

    (Another try for the rotation pic though)

  11. #51
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    Not sure we are making the new guy feel welcome..... I think the guide was designed for tanks who want an off spec to be more versatile.... not necessarily for the guy who is all 245+ fury and pulling down 6k deeps. There will be another guide for that someday.

    Personally, I used your YouTube videos to learn to play Fury and I appreciate the help a lot. For someone who doesnt play a spec a lot, it was a huge help.

    One question, I have noticed that I have obscene amounts of hit just from getting off spec stuff as we are farming in Ulduar. At what point would you drop precision?
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unger View Post
    One question, I have noticed that I have obscene amounts of hit just from getting off spec stuff as we are farming in Ulduar. At what point would you drop precision?
    If you are at the hardcap without precision. It is impossible, to get the dps, you get from precision, through another talent.
    (Assumed, you have imp. BoM or battle shout.)

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by GronkerLonker View Post
    So each time you use Slam after WW, I would have thought the next rotation is delayed 0.5 seconds.
    And thus the BT is delayed 0.5 seconds too or am I wrong?
    No, you're right.
    But you don't mention, that there's a addition of the WW/rotation delay.
    If you got 20 case a) rotations, you need 160s. If you got 160 seconds for the case b) rotation, there are only 160/8.5 = 18.8.
    Last edited by Quietsch; 11-09-2009 at 12:37 PM.

  13. #53
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    Actually I personally love the criticism, I find that it makes me analyze how I do things and forces me to know what I am doing and why I do it so that I can teach people the most accurate information I can, in addition to making me a better player.

    long story short I like the questions/discussions that have been going on in this thread thus far, so keep it up!
    Last edited by Thegreatme; 11-09-2009 at 12:55 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    Actually I personally love the criticism, I find that it makes me analyze how I do things and forces me to know what I am doing and why I do it so that I can teach people the most accurate information I can, in addition to making me a better player.

    long story short I like the questions/discussions that have been going on in this thread thus far, so keep it up!


    I will be editing this post in a bit because I am going to start trying to model Heroic strikes effect on the 1 slam rotation vs the 2 slam rotation.
    Again, in my opinion it would be better, if someone opens a new thread for this discussion. It's a little to difficult, for a "normal" user, who only wants to know some "little" things. (And also, it could lead to much posts.) Also it's kinda annoying, searching the related posts out of the other topics

  15. #55
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    Ok so this is what I got from my attempt to model the effect of HS when comparing the 1 slam rotation vs the 2 slam rotation.


    (note that this math needs work, see the last paragraph for details)

    Parameters:

    This is a comparison based on a 5 minute fight (300 seconds) (37 WWís will occur in this timeframe)
    I am assuming you are using a 3.6 speed weapon with no haste gear
    You have all external haste buffs (20% from WF, 3% from ret pally) as well as 100% flurry up time (25% haste)
    I am assuming HS will be used on every swing
    The first HS hit will occur at T=0.0


    First letís determine the frequency at which HS will be hitting:
    3.6*0.8 = 2.88
    2.88*0.97 = 2.7936
    2.7936*0.75 = 2.0952

    This means that HS will land at:
    0.0
    2.0952
    4.1904
    6.2856

    Now letís see how that interacts with WW at T = 0.0
    Possible proc outcomes:
    Double proc: 0.2*0.2=0.04 (4%)
    No procs: 0.8*0.8=0.64 (64%)
    Single proc: 1-(0.64+0.04)=0.32 (32%)

    Total chance for a proc: 0.32+0.04=0.36 (36%)

    37*0.36=13.32 (round to 13) occurrences of the double slam rotation
    Total BT pushback = 13 GCDís (19.5s)
    BTís lost: 19.5/4=4.875 (round to 4) BTís lost

    Now any slam proc that occurs after T=1.5s and before T=5.5s can be used without causing any interference with the BT at T=7.0s

    Times of possible bloodsurge procs:
    2.0952 (HS)
    3.0 (BT)
    4.1904 (HS)

    Possible proc outcomes:
    Triple proc: 0.2*0.2*0.2=0.008 (0.8%)
    Double proc (3 combinations): 3(0.2*0.2)=0.12 (12%)
    No procs: 0.8*0.8*0.8=0.512 (51.2%)
    Single proc: 1-(0.512+0.12+0.008)=0.36 (36%)

    Total chance for a proc: 0.36+0.008+0.12=0.488 (48.8%)

    So 48.8% of the 13 occurrences of the double slam rotation will result in being able to slam twice:

    13*.488=6.344 (round to 6) true double slam occurrences

    So out of 300 seconds you will spend 8.5*13=110.5s doing the double slam rotation, which will net you 19 slams.
    In the same amount of time, doing a single slam rotation you would have 110.5/8=13.8125 ďrotationsĒ
    Time to model the possible slam procs in the single slam rotation:
    Possible occurrences of procs:
    0.0 HS, WW
    1.5 BT
    2.0952 HS

    Possible outcomes of procs:
    Quadruple proc: 0.2*0.2*0.2*0.2=0.0016 (0.16%)
    Triple proc (4 pos. combinations): 4(0.2*0.2*0.2)=0.032 (3.2%)
    Double proc (6 pos. combinations): 6(0.2*0.2)=0.16 (16%)
    No proc: 0.8*0.8*0.8*0.8=0.4096 (40.96%)
    Single proc: 1-(.0016+.032+.16+.4096)=0.3968 (39.68%)

    Total chance for a proc: (.0016+.032+.16+.3968)=0.5904 (59.04%)

    So 59.04% of the 13.8125 rotations will have a usable bloodsurge proc.
    0.5904*13.8125=8.1549 (round to 8) slams

    So, doing the 2 slam rotation you gain 11 slams at the cost of 4 BTís


    After looking at this data I realized that my final answers could be very skewed in their current state because I rounded a lot along the way. For example just looking at the 13.32 2 slam occurrences, if you donít round that to 13, you get a BT push back of 19.98s which is basically 5 BTís instead of 4. There are probably lots of other places I made mistakes that skew the ends results.

    I would do most of the math over right now but I donít have a lot of time before my next class, so I will probably do it once I get home. In the mean time, rip my math apart, give me any thoughts, opinions, criticisms, etc.

  16. #56
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    Keep up the good work, you guys are doing good.

    Tankspot Moderator
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    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  17. #57
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    The complete haste calculation is wrong, haste is WpnSpd/(1+haste)*(1+haste)*(1+haste), so with flurry, wf and ret you would get 3.6/(1.25*1.03*1.2).

    For the round problems in the case of WW and the BS chance, you could simply say, that the fight is going 400s. (=50 WW; 18 slam!)

    And again, as far as i know, ww grants 2 chances to get BS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thegreatme View Post
    I would do most of the math over right now but I donít have a lot of time before my next class, so I will probably do it once I get home. In the mean time, rip my math apart, give me any thoughts, opinions, criticisms, etc.
    You aren't the only one, who has no time to look further at it
    Good night

  18. #58
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    Excellent video. Job very well done.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unger View Post
    Not sure we are making the new guy feel welcome..... I think the guide was designed for tanks who want an off spec to be more versatile.... not necessarily for the guy who is all 245+ fury and pulling down 6k deeps. There will be another guide for that someday.
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    New guy, indeed.

    Very nice guide, I've learned some helpful tips to use for my offspecc when I get to dps on bosses. Fenks!

  20. #60
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    Questions....

    I have noticed awhile ago that Heroic Strike's Tooltip is unique, does that me the 495 damage isn't multiplied by crits, thus making it overrated? I mean is the White Crit calculated first, then the extra 495?

    And your basically saying you can only use Slam during the 1.5 GCD window. Doesn't that mean we'll lose out on a lot of the procs? Is the extra attack not worth jerking the rotation around?

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