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Thread: Thoughs on Loot Council

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rominoodle View Post
    Personally, I think you guys are over complicating the matter. If this guild of yours is mostly friends and family I would imagine you don't beat each other up over loot. I've always done it with loot master and a need and a greed roll. Need roll is only for main spec, and it's a roll from 1-100 and greed roll is off-spec and it's 1-10. Very easy to distinguish who really needs the item and who doesn't. My guild doesn't use DKP, or loot council, we just trust each other not to be ninja looters and need on a slight "oh i could use this eventually" item.
    We did it like this for a long time even in 25 mans, because we were running together with another guild (though we were the majority). Personally, I love that system. I really like how it is completely cut and dry, and if anyone has an issue, you can just say "XYZ person won the roll fairly." We obviously didn't really have many problems with this system.

    Of course the one time we had an exception (new player takes high end equipment even though his dps sucks, then gquits) people decided we needed to change. I'll never understand why people feel that one piece of loot going badly means the whole system is bad, but so it goes.

    Now we use EPGP for 25 man runs, which is a good system, but I still prefer the Main>Alt, Mainspec>Offspec straight roll system. It's so much simpler. We still use the roll system for 10 man runs.

  2. #22
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    In our 10 mens we roll for items and everyone rolls need because 8/10 don't have their needy achievement yet. After that we bitch around a bit have a laugh and give the items to the ones who want them.

  3. #23
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    Idea on a possbile loot system

    I would like some feedback on a possible loot system that I have been kicking around. I'm trying to take the human factor out as much as possible.

    Please comment where you see I may have made mistakes in calcs. or judgment. I am thinking about developing this Raid addon to make the tracking of this easier, but I'd like to know what you all thought before I invest any time into it. Thanks in advance!

    Objective: Helps with loot distribution by calculating a loot score based on 4 factors. Attendance (including standby), Guild Bank contributions based off gold/item value, Gear Scores (Need before Greed), and items won. Based on a characters Loot Rank a grid will display the order in which raid members should receive loot. Also since each calculation has a factor in which it is multiplied you can change the factor to increase or decrease the weight of any one calculation.

    Calculations are based as follows:

    Gear Score: Average raid gear score (AGS) - Lowest Raid Gear Score (LGS) = Raid Gear Score Weight (RGSW) / Number in Raid (NR). or (AGS - LGS) / NR = Raid Gear Score Factor (RGSF). So for example if a 10 man raid had 2 people with Gear Scores of 258, 3 people with Gear Scores of 245, 4 with Gear Score 213, and 1 with Gear Score of 226 for an average of 232.9 (AGS) - 213 (LGS) = 19.9 (RGSW) / 10 (NR) = 1.99 (RGSF). Now that you have the Raid Gear Score factor you add or subtract that factor from each score plus or minus the AGS. So each person in this raid with a gear score of 258 would loose (258 - 232.9) * 1.99 = 49.95 points, each person with a score of 213 would gain (232.9 - 213) * 1.99 = 39.60 points, and each person with a Gear Score of 226 would gain (232.9 - 226) * 1.99 = 13.731.

    Attendance Score: Attendance Percentage 80 (AP) * Attendance Factor (AF) 1= 80 + Standby Percentage (SP) 20 * Standby Factor (SF) .75 = 15 = Attendance Score (AS) 95. So for example if a character was invited to 10 raids and they attended 8 out of those 10 raids their Attendance Percentage (AP) would be 80 * Attendance Factor (AF) 1 = 80. Now lets say that the next 5 raids the character was not invited but signed up and was placed on standby and was online for 3 out of the 5 of those raids their Standby Percentage would be 60 * Standby Factor (SF) .75 = 45. Their total Attendance Score (AS) would then be 125. Attendance would actually be calculated off of total raid time not necessarily raid amounts. It just makes it an easier example. Also standby credit would only be counted by the amount of actual time online during raid. A lookup table may have to be created in order to give credit for alt play time. Of course another method could be to have the person whisper Raid Leader in order to register the character/alt with the raid they are on to gain credit.

    Bank Score: Bank Score would be based off of item/gold deposits to the guild bank. Item values would be translated to a gold value via the Auctioneer DB http://auctioneerdb.com so that characters depositing more value added items get proper credit. Each gold piece would be equal to amount deposited * Bank Point Factor (BPF). A method for tracking alt deposits would have to be designed. For example if a character deposited 5 fish feasts at an Auction House mean price value of 19 gold 48 silver, 3 Flask of the Frost Wyrm at an Auction House mean price value of 27 gold 70 silver, and finally they deposited 100 gold their Bank Score (BS) would be 280.5 gold * Bank Point Factor (BPF) .5 = 140.25. There would have to be a check to make sure that people on the raid DEing or collecting BoE items did not get credit for depositing those into the guild bank.

    Item Won Score: Item Won Score (IWS) could be based off of Items Won (IW) 2 * Item Won Factor (IWF) 10 = Item Won Score (IWS) 20 or it could be more complicated and be based off of Average Item Gear Score (AIGS) 226 * Items Won (IW) 2 * Item Won Factor (IWF) 10 = 238. Item Won Score is a negative calculation so this score would be subtracted from total.

    Taking the calculation examples from above and using the IWS calc of (IW) * (IWF) we would have the following Loot Ranks.

    The people having a gear score of 213, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 284.85.

    The people having a gear score of 226, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 258.98.

    The people having a gear score of 245, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 221.17.

    The people having a gear score of 258, with everything else being equal, would have a Loot Rank score of 195.05.

    So if a piece of loot dropped for Pallies and one had a gear score of 258 and the other had a score of 226 then the Pally with Loot Rank score of 258.98 would win the loot. If for some rare occasion the Loot Rank number was equal then it would go to roll off or loot council.

    Anyhow I know calculations in paragraph form is not always the easiest, but I was trying to give examples/descriptions along with the calcs. Also there also needs to be some implementation so that Pugs get a chance at loot as well. 2 out of the 4 calcs would still work (GearScore and Items won), but there would have to be a mechanisim to fill in the Bank/Attendance calcs.

    Feedback is really appreciated.
    Thanks!

    P.S. Sorry for posting same reply twice!
    Last edited by docseuss; 11-17-2009 at 06:34 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rominoodle View Post
    Personally, I think you guys are over complicating the matter. If this guild of yours is mostly friends and family I would imagine you don't beat each other up over loot. I've always done it with loot master and a need and a greed roll. Need roll is only for main spec, and it's a roll from 1-100 and greed roll is off-spec and it's 1-10. Very easy to distinguish who really needs the item and who doesn't. My guild doesn't use DKP, or loot council, we just trust each other not to be ninja looters and need on a slight "oh i could use this eventually" item.
    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    In our 10 mens we roll for items and everyone rolls need because 8/10 don't have their needy achievement yet. After that we bitch around a bit have a laugh and give the items to the ones who want them.
    These posts indicate the real nature of loot distribution. It isn't the mechanics, you could be reading cat droppings to determine who gets the loot, it would still work in those guilds. In guilds were you feel the need to select a loot system, at heart, something is fundamentally wrong. People might still gquit due to loot council or a string of RNG with rolls or the undergeared pug walking away with 5 pieces of loot in an SKG system.

  5. #25
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    @Docseuss

    I can see alts being a monkeywrench in this scheme.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    @Docseuss

    I can see alts being a monkeywrench in this scheme.
    How so Insahnity?

  7. #27
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    Gear Score: Average raid gear score (AGS) - Lowest Raid Gear Score (LGS) = Raid Gear Score Weight (RGSW) / Number in Raid (NR). or (AGS - LGS) / NR = Raid Gear Score Factor (RGSF). So for example if a 10 man raid had 2 people with Gear Scores of 258, 3 people with Gear Scores of 245, 4 with Gear Score 213, and 1 with Gear Score of 226 for an average of 232.9 (AGS) - 213 (LGS) = 19.9 (RGSW) / 10 (NR) = 1.99 (RGSF). Now that you have the Raid Gear Score factor you add or subtract that factor from each score plus or minus the AGS. So each person in this raid with a gear score of 258 would loose (258 - 232.9) * 1.99 = 49.95 points, each person with a score of 213 would gain (232.9 - 213) * 1.99 = 39.60 points, and each person with a Gear Score of 226 would gain (232.9 - 226) * 1.99 = 13.731.
    Oh dear God man, no loot is worth this much math. Seriously? you are going to do this for 25 people every raid? what if you have to work late? What if you get the flu and miss a raid?
    Yes, I said write a detailed description, I didn't say make it require Algebra.
    Too. much. work.

    Second issue: item values change hourly, by the time you go through the entire guild assessing bank deposit value the first guy might have gotten 40 gold credit for an item that the last guy got 10 gold credit for. Stick to gold only if you want to judge loyalty by bank deposits. Second, [Green Crap of the Whale] will pile up in the bank amazingly fast and then people will whine that they deposited twenty seven items to someone elses' four so why does the other guy have a higher score? Too sticky of a wicket.

    Count attendance, count preparedness, count availability, all other factors spread way too wide into gray areas.
    The pen is mightier than the sword.
    My Etsy Shop: http://www.etsy.com/shop/penlowe

  8. #28
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    Wall of text crits prancy for ouch.

    Definitely would be something to be handled by an addon if you're going to go through with it.

    My guild finally has enough people that we'll "probably" be able to actually implement our loot council system. I really like the idea of having raider input in the process. In the end its a group effort and a group decision and as long as everyone agrees the piece will go to help progress all should be well.

    Thanks for everyone's input

  9. #29
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    Best way for Loot Council to be effective is to not have crybaby gear whores in your guild. Which is easier said then done.

    One way to limit this is to have a pre-planned list of who gets what if/when it drops. This would mean you needed a regular roster of raiders, and for people who aren't getting their turn on a drop to show up anyway as part of a team effort.

    Priorities would be who needs what the most, in terms of gear upgrades. In unclear circumstances, a /roll beforehand would sort the issue with the agreement that next week (circumstances unchanged) they'd get priority on the drop next time (even if it doesn't drop for the first person).

    And people who refuse to raid (without good excuse, obviously) because they aren't getting their turn can face the prospect of being replaced on the roster and never getting a shot at it.

    End of the day, being in a guild should be a team effort. You show up, you help each other, you get rewarded fairly. If you don't get any upgrades, take comfort that your guildmates have and thus the raid has improved ready for next time.

  10. #30
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    Use gold-dkp instead.

    Everybody gets chance to pay gold for an item. At the end of the run, the gold is split equally between all players that stayed untill the end.

    I think it's a perfect system for dkp-based pugging loot.

    (Though honestly, just use need/greed if you don't want to use dkp, or let people roll for it on a one-roll system (once you win a roll, you can't get loot again that raid.))
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penlowe View Post
    Oh dear God man, no loot is worth this much math. Seriously? you are going to do this for 25 people every raid? what if you have to work late? What if you get the flu and miss a raid?
    Yes, I said write a detailed description, I didn't say make it require Algebra.
    Too. much. work.

    Second issue: item values change hourly, by the time you go through the entire guild assessing bank deposit value the first guy might have gotten 40 gold credit for an item that the last guy got 10 gold credit for. Stick to gold only if you want to judge loyalty by bank deposits. Second, [Green Crap of the Whale] will pile up in the bank amazingly fast and then people will whine that they deposited twenty seven items to someone elses' four so why does the other guy have a higher score? Too sticky of a wicket.

    Count attendance, count preparedness, count availability, all other factors spread way too wide into gray areas.
    Haha Penlowe. Actually if you look at my calcs it really is simply arithmetic. I was actually just using the acronym/variables to make it easier to read.

    I appreciate the comments and do want to reiterate that this tracking would not be done manually. I am writting an addon to track these types of stats. Also I like the fact that as the market changes so does the credit one gets for deposits into the GB. Also if someone did try and flood the guild bank with greens then their loss as 99.9% of greens DE to a more valued enchanting dust or essence. I do think I probably need to add a minimum item level credit check though.

    Also I thought about a way to track preparedness, but there really is no way to do this except manually. I was thinking of maybe looking for food or flask buffs to give credit, but if someone else lays down a Fish Feast then why give credit to all of those who eat it.

    Any more thoughts on my above approach would be appreciated!

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by docseuss View Post
    Any more thoughts on my above approach would be appreciated!
    I'm just wondering why you feel it's necessary to go to the trouble of coming up with this kind of loot system, even writing a mod, when there are already several loot systems (and supporting mods) in existence. Surely one of them comes close enough to what you want, to avoid the additional investment in time you'd be looking at to devise and maintain your own system?

  13. #33
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    This advice is only if you want to become somewhat "serious" about your raiding.

    If you're going to use Loot Council, you should still try to use some kind of tracking addon. When my old guild moved to DKP away from Loot Council, we started keeping hard attendance records (because the Addon handled it all for us). It's actually eye-opening to see these types of numbers. There were people who I didn't know too well who turned out to have 100% raid attendance, and then there was good old "Bob," who has been with us forever, an awesome guy, whose raid attendance turns out to be below 50%.

    If a particularly nice item, best-in-slot dropped for "Bob," based on my subjective memory, I might be inclined to vote that "Bob" receive the item. If I saw the raid attendance numbers, though, I might learn the "Jeff" has actually been plugging away, helping the guild take care of progression raids.

    If you'd rather not go the "serious" route, that's perfectly fine. Different strokes for different folks.

    *This post is not meant to imply that "serious" guilds do not use Loot Council.

  14. #34
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    The only thing I don't like about loot council systems is they are very subjective. Personally I value attendance and quality of skill over almost everything else, loot-wise, so I usually have a hard time seeing someone who's in low ilvl gear cause they never show up get something over someone who's been dependable for a long time. And of course it's going to be a bigger upgrade for the guy who never shows up, so you can't really look at it that way.

    I'm RL/Officer of an exclusively 10m raiding guild, and we almost never have loot issues (one of the reasons I prefer 10m over 25m now that the content is almost identicle), with exception of the time when you have a regular rolling against someone who never shows up. We're still trying to gear up a few regulars, so I hate to see when someone who almost never shows up gets something over a regular. Feels so unfair. I think it feels unfair because out of say 10 boss kills, this item has only shown up this one time. The regular has been there for 9 out of the 10 kills, and it's this person's first time killing the guy. The item might not drop again because we might not kill this guy 10 more times (that's 10 weeks any way you cut it).

    -----------------------------

    For the guy looking for feedback, I don't really think you should base it on gear score at all, because someone with high attendance will always have a higher gear score, and so will always lose over someone who never shows up and isn't much of an asset to the raid team. That's really not a good way to pass out loot, especially if you have 3 or 4 of the same class, and only one of those guys is there every raid with the others flaking in and out on a whim. That regular is going to get pretty pissed off.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by docseuss View Post
    Gear Score: <snip>

    Attendance Score: <snip>
    Bank Score: <snip>
    Item Won Score: <snip>
    OK to simplify things, minus the math.

    You have a great Healer who attends 100% of all raids, donates thousands of gold worth of mats to the Gbank from farming, and has pretty decent gear, so any gear upgrades are pretty significant of a win (this is the type of healer for whom the guild collected the epic healer mace, let's say).

    Now said healer comes with a DPS toon that *just* dinged 80 say 15 minutes ago, and wants to raid. You know they are skilled as DPS, and can pull their own weight, but their gear scores sucks.

    There are two ways to handle this. The alt is a separate entity, with separate scores, or you recognize this is an alt. Both have consequences

    As a separate entity:
    Gear Score: Skews the weight because they have crappy gear, when in fact as players they have access to really good gear.
    Attendance Score: Also zero, because attendance score is on their main.
    Bank Score: Also Zero, their contributions are attributed to main.
    Items Won: Zero, which means purely from items score, they will be heavily favoured to win gear preferentially on their alt, despite the fact they already won the choice healer gear on their main.

    As an alt
    Gear Score: If you consider each individual toon's gear score at the time, you might cause drama in the raid "That SOB with the 245+ gear and legendary mace is using his undergeared alt to get all the loot..."
    Attendance Score: I see this as being accurate, 100% attendance including main/alt
    Bank Score: High in both cases, but in some respects, can be considered "Double dipping", each contribution counts towards two (or more) toons.
    Item's won: This is the worst. If you factor the wins from both toons, either the low alt never gets gear because the main gets it all, or the alt gets all the gear and the main stagnates, weakening the raid group.

    I'm not saying it won't work, but I can see potential issues to deal with either way.

  16. #36
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    Insahnity,
    Thank you for your reply and I think I understand what you are getting at, but the system I am thinking of would actually track the Main and Alt as two different toons. However I do plan on relating alts to mains so that we know who belongs to who.

    So giving the situation you stated below the main "Healer" would have a higher loot rank score as they have contributed more to the guild bank and would have a higher attendance rate, which there may need to be a mechanism to set a minimum raid attended number as well, than the alt "DPS".

    I guess there could be a setting as to whether or not to allow the alt/main bank contributions to combine. As far as items won I would also know that since this is an alt it would have a lower preference to someone Else's main.

    Also can you explain further how you think the items won would stagnate a main? I was a little confused there.

    Basically what I am trying to get at is a system that takes as much human decision out of loot and thus taking as much drama out as well. It is hard to argue why someone got loot over someone else when you have hard stats and numbers to back you up.

    I mean ultimately you want to do what is best for your Raid Group but any of us that have raided for awhile knows that there are basically some standard common sense things we follow. Need before Greed, Mains before alts (including spec), and those who contribute more should have higher preference when it comes to loot over those who just show up when they feel like raiding and contribute nothing else than a warm body.

    Now there will be those who flame these thoughts, but I think at their core they are correct. There all always exceptions to every rule, but I think these apply most of the time. I am hoping by tracking numbers raid members can see what they need to do and have a harder time disputing loot decisions.

    I mean I don't know about you, but I have often meet with teh officers and we are trying to piece together who has been on and who has been contributing and basing decisions off our recollections and impressions, which I have to admit can be skewed at times. I would like to eliminate as much of that as possible and I think I can by using these four tools to do so.

    Please keep this discussion going as I have already made several changes to my thought process based on the discussions here.

    Also for those of you interested I have started my addon and the very first alpha version is located here. GambitRaidSystem - WoW AddOns - CurseForge.com

    Thanks everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    OK to simplify things, minus the math.

    You have a great Healer who attends 100% of all raids, donates thousands of gold worth of mats to the Gbank from farming, and has pretty decent gear, so any gear upgrades are pretty significant of a win (this is the type of healer for whom the guild collected the epic healer mace, let's say).

    Now said healer comes with a DPS toon that *just* dinged 80 say 15 minutes ago, and wants to raid. You know they are skilled as DPS, and can pull their own weight, but their gear scores sucks.

    There are two ways to handle this. The alt is a separate entity, with separate scores, or you recognize this is an alt. Both have consequences

    As a separate entity:
    Gear Score: Skews the weight because they have crappy gear, when in fact as players they have access to really good gear.
    Attendance Score: Also zero, because attendance score is on their main.
    Bank Score: Also Zero, their contributions are attributed to main.
    Items Won: Zero, which means purely from items score, they will be heavily favoured to win gear preferentially on their alt, despite the fact they already won the choice healer gear on their main.

    As an alt
    Gear Score: If you consider each individual toon's gear score at the time, you might cause drama in the raid "That SOB with the 245+ gear and legendary mace is using his undergeared alt to get all the loot..."
    Attendance Score: I see this as being accurate, 100% attendance including main/alt
    Bank Score: High in both cases, but in some respects, can be considered "Double dipping", each contribution counts towards two (or more) toons.
    Item's won: This is the worst. If you factor the wins from both toons, either the low alt never gets gear because the main gets it all, or the alt gets all the gear and the main stagnates, weakening the raid group.

    I'm not saying it won't work, but I can see potential issues to deal with either way.

  17. #37
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    Bashal,
    Thank you for your reply and yes you are correct in that there are several loot systems and mods out there, but none of them that I can find puts the components I am looking for together. If you can suggest some that track the things I am looking at tracking it would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    I'm just wondering why you feel it's necessary to go to the trouble of coming up with this kind of loot system, even writing a mod, when there are already several loot systems (and supporting mods) in existence. Surely one of them comes close enough to what you want, to avoid the additional investment in time you'd be looking at to devise and maintain your own system?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by docseuss View Post
    Insahnity,
    Also can you explain further how you think the items won would stagnate a main? I was a little confused there.
    In a fair system, which you pointed out earlier, the same person can't be winning over and over again just by switching alts. Therefore, you have to limit that person's winning in some fashion, or you get drama. So at some point, one of two things happen:
    1) If the main wins alot, the alt won't be winning much because, well, the main won all the loot that one player can reasonably achieve in a week/(lockout period).
    2) The more likely scenario, the healer just get's plumb burnt out healing, so they want to switch it up a bit and play the alt. Understandably, they don't want to deprive the guild of their best healer, so they still play the main, but their heart is (temporarily) on the little alt, and they may choose to gear up the alt preferentially. When this happens, the main will not be taking the upgrades, the alt will. Therefore, your best healer won't get many upgrades (if any), and stagnate.

    Basically what I am trying to get at is a system that takes as much human decision out of loot and thus taking as much drama out as well. It is hard to argue why someone got loot over someone else when you have hard stats and numbers to back you up.

    I mean ultimately you want to do what is best for your Raid Group but any of us that have raided for awhile knows that there are basically some standard common sense things we follow. Need before Greed, Mains before alts (including spec), and those who contribute more should have higher preference when it comes to loot over those who just show up when they feel like raiding and contribute nothing else than a warm body.
    Let me bounce an idea off you, and see if this makes sense.

    The most inhuman (rational) loot system is the roll. There is no arguing RNG, you can't say it cheated. Therefore, if your aim was truly to be impartial, you would stick to a random roll. However, I agree this is bad.

    At heart, we try and "humanize" the RNG by adding human values to the role. The next evolution of the random roll is 200 Need/ 100 Greed. We are subverting RNG by giving a penalty to those who are less needy/worthy/etc. of the item.

    The other end of the spectrum is a pure loot council. No rolls, completely arbritrary decision based on the judgement of the loot council. RNG is right out the window.

    Your mod is just taking it the next step of moving between RNG and Loot Council, by adding n variables (instead of one, mainspec/offspec). The more controls you add, right or wrong, are essentially moving you closer to the Loot Council system. Really, any fair Loot Council can justify their decision based on the same rules you outlined, you are just basically writing out all the rules so that everybody can see, and adding mathematics to it. If any loot council cannot arrive at the same decision as your rules, then essentially either they are not fit to be a council or they are outright ninjas. And really, even the best loot council will occasionally result in hardships for some, because really, if we don't progress, despite all the logic that goes in it, we feel discouraged at some level. This is where a good Loot Council can shine over yours. "See, this guy has a perfect attendance, contributes well, raids well, but damnit, because everybody else has an overriding need that is skewing the math (10 other of the same armor class with really crappy gear skewing gear score, or whatever), this superstar has quietly endured 4 weeks of not getting loot". Mathematically, your system would eventually catch up because their low "Gear Won" score portion would make them competitive, but will the heart behind the human being seeing no loot for 4 weeks be able to keep silent, or will they quit in frustration before the system has caught up and rewards them? No math can factor in personalities, as different people have different thresholds. Incidentally, DKP based systems or SKG systems do avoid this, but they also have issues, as we all know.

    Again, keep plugging away, but keep these in mind. You will never approach the infinite (the perfect loot system), but you can refine it better and better, with diminishing returns as you go, and coloured by your values (which may be good values, but not everybody agrees on what is good).

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Your mod is just taking it the next step of moving between RNG and Loot Council,
    It sounded more to me like a step past loot council. A lot of the things he would be tracking, such as attendance, average gear score, and guild bank contribution, are things I have seen before as factors in a loot council's decision-making process.

  20. #40
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    reward effort-
    epgp with mains and alts the same. assuming the player brings whichever toon is needed.

    Doc

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