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Thread: How does a Warrior stand against a Paladin, and how can I survive more?

  1. #21
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    It might be that I'm a paladin and bring the bacon of light, but my guild's warrior, paladin and dk tanks don't feel any different in terms of their damage intake. (Just got a druid, but I've healed them in pugs with little difference). Might one be taking more damage? Probably. Do I notice? Not so much. If a holy light is less overhealing on one tank than another, I'm still overhealing them both and if not, that's what other healers are for.

    The only issue I've seen with another tank going splat because of boss damage was one 10 heroic val'kyrs where a warrior and I(prot this time) were both rarely topped off and my judgment of light compensated for the healers on my side, but not his. That fight involved much /w to the raid leader to let me heal the damn fight.

  2. #22
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    Being a warrior myself, my fellow tank is also a paladin and I've been thinking about this. He recently consulted me about the EH value of BV. One of the questions he asked me was whether 80BV or 18sta was more valuable EH-wise as a shield enchant.

    I've rejected this idea of BV as an EH stat in WotLK since the change of Shield Block, but the concept might still be valid for a Paladin. I don't know what to think, it's a bit of a trip to the past for me. I used to stack BV for both threat and EH in tBC because nearly all damage was physical and I blocked almost every hit, especially with the expertise gear after the Sunwell patch. Today, I see it as tps stat mostly and a bit of bonus damage reduction. Stacking it for AoE tanking only, although that's usually the paladin's job, but you know, there's always the occasional raid he can't join and we have an undergeared tank alt or I for instance solotank an Ulduar hard mode raid up to Hodir, Freya, Mimiron.

    Anyway, back to the topic:
    I feel that for Paladins, BV is in line with armor, a physical migitation stat that can always be relied on, hence contributing to EH, while for Warriors, BV is more in line with avoidance, reducing over-all average damage, but it cannot be relied on, although it improves the value of the shield block mini-cooldown.

    Talking about Paladin EH, his better scaling with stamina (14% vs 6%) is really starting to show at these new gear levels. Both full buffed, he's a good 3k above me to beyond the 50k mark. I can regem a bit more, but still. However, he seems to notice that I'm taking less damage than he does over the course of a fight. That may be true, but I'm more concerned with my bull's butt when he gets the ice block triple hit at H-Anub though; I can't pop last stand while I'm in the ice block. Any advice for surviving phase3 as a warrior?


    note: my armory is currently not showing my full progression set; swap in the ToC10 avoidance waist, armor weapon, armor ring and the H-ToC10 expertise neck.
    Last edited by Síhrtogg; 11-04-2009 at 02:14 AM.

  3. #23
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    The pally talents that boost stamina are showing in this example. If the pallys health is dropping down a lot he could be ardent defendering a lot of damage, idk. I'm leaning toward just bias...the stats between the two toons were too equal to say one is better really. However I couldn't see how much sbv each had and that could make a difference.
    Former healbot now a Disgruntled protection warrior.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Síhrtogg View Post
    Talking about Paladin EH, his better scaling with stamina (14% vs 6%) is really starting to show at these new gear levels. Both full buffed, he's a good 3k above me to beyond the 50k mark. I can regem a bit more, but still.
    As a note, if you are seeing a 3k difference, then it really is a either a gear or gemming/enchanting difference. Taking the same gear at iLvL 258 (of course adjusting for tier gear and libram/gun), a paladin is going to be about 1k-1.2k higher in health in full raid buffs. Throw a warrior and paladin in chardev with the same buffs/gear (again swapping libram/gun and having appropriate tier gear). Gem them then same and enchant them the same. You'll see it won't be around 3k.

    At ILvL 245, I have slighlty better gear than my warrior counterpart and I barely beat him in health pre buffs (buffs would net me about 400 more I think). A 3k difference isn't due solely to scaling. Only about a third of it is.

  5. #25
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    Block value and Ardent defender surfing (why I was asking was the pally going really low) but given he is dropping hard thats not it.

    To be honest my best guess is you have an issue with HOTS on the tanks. In guild we talk about V spike healing because essentially for the majority of stuff what you see is the tanks running along at 100% HP where the hots on the tank equal or are more than the low level background periodic damage and then what you get is a big V notch when the big hit comes. Then what we worry about is how fast that dent in HP is filled back up.

    What you described sounds about right the big hits will be around 35-40% of your HP so for you to die the problem wasnt the hit itself it was the period before the hits in which you HP was not 100% and why was that.

    So the question is why aren't the HOTS on you properly and it may be something like the pally is controlling adds or something better and the healers aren't having to move. I am pretty sure it's not gear related I think it's something you or the healers are or arent doing.

    Sort of in my mind also is the fact the pally has made some very clever gear choices and interesting spec its not cookie cutter ... how do you rate his tank skill versus you? What I am getting at is some damage is avoidable by good tank movement .. that has nothing to do with gear.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  6. #26
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    i too am a warrior tank...in our raid(25 man) our top tank is a pally,followed by a druid, followed by me.The usual routine on beasts is first two tanks each take three stacks before it comes to me...i hit shieldwall and taunt, then when second impale is on me i die....95% of the time.Raid buffed i run around 48k health, and i dont believe my gear is too bad The World of Warcraft Armory

    As of last night they've replaced me with another pally tank because he's "less squishy"...i'm at a loss of what to do now...i know the timing,and use my cooldowns appropriately, yet i cant stay alive...advice?

  7. #27
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    Honestly, for 25 man heroic, I would want you to have a bit better gear. You are geared enough to start trying it, but I think you need a bit more gear to be reliably successful. I would take you for 10m version no problem, but 25m version is a bit rougher on the incoming damage.

    Also, if you are taking that much more damage, you should have tried taking the first spot in the tanking rotation.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Dayon, if the healers are saying you're harder to heal, it's either their imagination, or you're doing something really strange, like turning your back or not using cooldowns right.

    Your gear is fine, and your spec is fine. Next time you raid, keep an eye on a damage meter. Look at your damage intake compared to the paladin, then look at your healing intake compared to the paladin. That'll give you a better idea of how the healers are spending their resources, which could be a source of the problem.

    It's really really important to build a good relationship of trust with your healers. Show them what you're doing to help them, and they'll do what they can to help you.

    I felt the need to respond here, my guilds Main healer is my wife, she sits directly behind me. She thinks the pallies in our guild are easier to heal as well, its gotten to the point where I have stopped playing my warrior, and started playing my DK all the time.

    My DK in lesser gear she feels is easier to heal than my Warrior was. I can provide armories if you want to see them.

    But OP I feel your pain here, I went DPS/ DEF on my DK and don't plan on playing the warrior except to cut gems.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nahmette View Post
    i too am a warrior tank...in our raid(25 man) our top tank is a pally,followed by a druid, followed by me.The usual routine on beasts is first two tanks each take three stacks before it comes to me...i hit shieldwall and taunt, then when second impale is on me i die....95% of the time.Raid buffed i run around 48k health, and i dont believe my gear is too bad The World of Warcraft Armory

    As of last night they've replaced me with another pally tank because he's "less squishy"...i'm at a loss of what to do now...i know the timing,and use my cooldowns appropriately, yet i cant stay alive...advice?
    You're talking about normal mode?

    If so, your healers need to pre-heal you, at least shield/absorb/hot or whatever, so you don't need to waste Shield Wall when you taunt. You should be popping shield wall with the intention that the effect will remain up for your least favorite impale tick, in your case, 8 seconds or so before the 2nd impale.
    I'd suggest taunting with LS+ER+SBlock.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I've made the analogy before and I'll make it again. Pallies are like an automatic transmission whereas warriors are a manual transmission. Capable of the same things, but pallies cooldowns are reactive and automatic (namely the parts of AD, dmg reduction and the instant LS if you were going to die). Warriors have various aspects that can act in those functions, and knowing when to pop cooldowns really can, as the posters before me have said, make all the difference in the world. I would argue that warriors have to just be more proactive.
    It's a great analogy. However, to those not automotively inclined,

    Manual Transmission
    -Requires more skill to operate, a real hassle in start and stop traffic
    -Can stop faster and more reliably due to additional tool (use engine to slow car via downshifting, which is better since you can never skid this way and still use the brakes in conjunction with this)
    -Generally is more fuel efficient over automatic transmission (assuming all else are the same except for transmission, and that you don't drive like a jackass)
    -Can provide racing advantages through faster downshifting and manually utilizing which part of the engine Power curve you are using (at the cost of gas aka driving like a jackass) Think of afterburners on a jet fighter, really bad gas consumption but one hell of a tactical kick.

    In better context:

    Paladins
    -In the extreme, paladins can go afk on a fight like Loatheb (just have your cat/2 yr old/pet rock/etc. keep up the holy shield). Passive abilities take care of everyting else.

    Warriors
    -requires more skill to play than most other tanks, due to the extra tools that have to be used, adding more complexity.
    -Can handle more situations due to the extra abilies (abilities to address physical, magical, melee, casters (stuns AND silences)). While other tanks have some of these, they don't have ALL of them.

  11. #31
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    Pretty much the bottom line is the damage intake on a warrior is spikier, which requires a lot more attention to heal correctly, whereas paladin damage intake is less bumpy, therefore not as intense. Warriors can even out this damage a bit by using cooldown glyphs/talents and using their CDs proactively.

    It was the same way in Everquest but reversed, when paladin avoidance made us more spikey than warriors (we had block as avoidance because we had a chance to block, and if we did we blocked the entire hit) because warriors had more strait up armor mitigation. They took more hits, but the damage was pretty even. We got the RNG, and spiked all to hell.

    Now I'm a warrior, and I still have the same issues as when I tanked as a pally in EQ. Bah. lol (Although not near as bad as Everquest days).

    Anyway the point is the healing is easier when the damage is more predictable. Been a pretty common mechanic since the early days of MMOs.

  12. #32
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    Warr VS Pally

    Ok now im warr tank for my guild, were small 10 man only guild, recently cleared togc 10 hc with 1 or 2 pieces of 25 man loot, not on me though.
    Once i learned all fights became easy, dmg is hard and most of it unavoidable but it is predictable.
    The way i went into it is getin eithrigss oath, trink that gives armor when hited, caps at 5 stacks, gives 7K somtn armor.
    Now i got shield wall(talented&gliphed) 2 min
    Got this trink/enraged regen(aditional hot)/last stand/armor pot as second 2 min cd, and i got black hearth trink too which is not reliable but will proc on situations when i use eithrigss oath in most cases
    These 2 cd are more then enough, seing as one works 12 sec, other 20 sec
    Why is armor so good and can be as good as SW
    Full hit from boss with 0 armor on target is lets say 50K
    You got armor for 65% dmg reduction, thats 17.5K dmg per hit
    You pop indestr pot/trink/black hearth procs, you capp armor=75% dmg reduction which lowers this hit to a more managable 12.5K
    Thats my way of dealin with spikeh dmg, and seems it works fine
    Now 50% of gormoks dmg is from his dot which is unavoidable, but you can do somtn with other attacks.
    Now his dmg goes higher as fight progreses, meaning you should burn cd in last 2 switches, you pop sw just before taunting and time it so you apsorb 2 knockdowns.
    We had som deaths there but soon realised that it was combination of his knockdown/dot/melle, knockdown(unavoidable) eating lots of health when healers were still switching, add melle hit&fresh dot and your screwed.
    And yes pallys have their ardent defender, which basicly is teling you he can make a mistake and live while you cant, nothing is forgiven and you need to be prepared.Study the fights and do what tanks should do, always try to find a way to reduce dmg
    Last edited by Slayerscythe; 11-07-2009 at 03:00 AM.

  13. #33
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    The warriors identitly is the tank. The warrior is and always will be the best and most consistent tank you can find.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelhitz View Post
    The warriors identitly is the tank. The warrior is and always will be the best and most consistent tank you can find.
    I disagree vehemently with this, and I play a Warrior. This hasn't been true since Classic, and it wasn't even *entirely* true then (Hello, competent bears.)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelhitz View Post
    The warriors identitly is the tank. The warrior is and always will be the best and most consistent tank you can find.
    That's silly, Warriors only have one tree that allows you to tank. DKs have three trees for tanking.

    Seriously though, your statement only hurts the Warrior community. The days of "You bring the warrior because they are the tanks" have ceased to exist. Maybe you preferred those days. It doesn't matter. They are gone.

    On a thread relevant note: I fail to see how people are noticing Paladins to be easier to heal. With the exception of stamina scaling, which we've already seen to not really equate to that much more, AD is the only ability Paladins have that might unbalance them. I don't hear this about Blood DKs with their WotN, which works in a very similar fashion. If these healers are really seeing the difference they must not be overhealing at all, or the slim difference between the two classes would never show.

  16. #36
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    Having a 15 second cooldown on WotN and no cooldown on AD make them not even comparable. AD equates to 7% extra health all the time, yeah that trinket we click to give us mini last stand... they always have it up. Plus if they ever get a rogue hit that would kill them... hey look they are at half health.

    One or the other would make sense. But having both still boggles me as to what blizzard was thinking.

  17. #37
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    well i hear the same stuff on my server and to be honest its BS i think honestly some healers are just convinced that pallys are "the best" tanks by far but really were all equal as long as we know what were doing to be honest i think the healers in ur guild are just slacking when it comes to healing you but thats just my 0.02.i also play a warrior tank and i've met healers that do that so i'm just talking from experiance cuz i've looking at the meters.

  18. #38
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    I play the game and run with my guild....

    I have fun doing so. O.o
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    I play the game and run with my guild....

    I have fun doing so. O.o
    We have fun talking about tank mechanics in threads without derailing for unrelated comments.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  20. #40
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    This thread has been done at least 10 times, 10 different ways in the last month. I understand enjoying talking about the mechanics of tanking and the different classes, but we are continually kicking a dead horse here. There is a search function, let's learn to use it.

    The exact same thing happens with Fury warriors, every thread, I can copy and paste my answers into because it is always the SAME thing over and over and over.

    Am I derailing it, no. I'm trying to end the same argument that is in 6 threads on the main page of 3 sections on this forum.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

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