How does a Warrior stand against a Paladin, and how can I survive more?

[Dayon]

My guild heavily favors Paladin tanks, and it may be because the MT before I came along was an amazing Paladin tank. My guild goes around saying that Paladin tanks, because of the near constant uptime of Holy Shield are unhittable, which makes sense. I know my current fellow Paladin tank can keep his up indefinitely.

I can do that only with my Shield Block, and even with my T9 Four-pieces bonus, there's a 20-second downtime that my avoidance doesn't sky-rocket.

I know that Blizzard intended for each of the four tanks to be able to perform each role in this game, but do Paladins really have their avoidance to credit this spot above Warrior tanks? What's the consensus of Tankspot for this?

I also want to be able to survive more than I've been able to, and I'm going to respec and reglyph to fit in that nice two-minute Shield Wall. It just seems more and more difficult to know when to pop my vast array of trinket and ability cooldowns.

Wasn't sure whether to put this post in advice, or mechanics. I'm talking a bit about both here, so.

[orcstar]

First: blocking is not avoidance.

Second: While paladins block more often, warrior block for more when they block becuase of critical block and shieldblock. It's supposed to even out.

[Petninja]

K, lets assume (for simplicity) 22% dodge, 18% parry, 20%block with 1400 SBV.

Our "Boss" is on a 1s swing timer (again for simplicity) and hits for 10k each hit.
Our Paladin is keeping his Holy Shield up

per minute breakdown
Mechanic--------Warrior--------Paladin
Avoid-------------30-------------30
Block -------------12-------------30
Hit ----------------18-------------0

Damage reduced --16800---------42000

not very close

Now let's assume our Warrior is keeping shield block on CD (Double SBV for 10s, unhittable for 10s)

Avoid ---------------30------------ 30
Block --------------16.5 (4.5)------ 30
Hit ------------------13.5 --------- 0

Damage Reduced ----23100 ------ 42000

Closer

reason for the change: Shield Block is up 25% of the time, talented. Per minute it will spend an average of 15s up, half of those seconds wasted by avoidance mechanics. Shield Block will affect 7.5 blocks, 3 of those blocks being blocks that occur anyway. Add in +60% from Critical Block and the damage reduced increases to 36960. That's still a 5k difference, but this is over the course of a minute. Take in to consideration that Shield Block gives you the option to reduce incoming damage by more during the worst of it, and it should balance out a little bit more.

60% avoidance----------- 20% block
M------------W ------------ P
A------------36-------------36
B -----------16.5(4.5)------ 24
H ----------- 7.5 ----------- 0

Dam Red------36960 ------ 33600

I jacked the avoidance by 10% to show a point. Warriors start out behind on block, but as their avoidance increases the value of their block eventually becomes greater than the Pallys. The Pally is pushing his block off the table with avoidance (the same avoidance Warriors have access to).

I hope that's not too hard to follow, and I especially hope I didn't mess up somewhere in there.

[jere]

It's also worth noting that paladins will not be block capped in Icecrown.

[geros]

orc already mentioned that blocking isn't avoidance and that's a very good first point. Even if pallies get miss/dodge/block/parry on each attack they are still being hit. Otherwise you wouldn't need a healer :P. They are just mitigating some % of damage or avoiding on each hit.

The difference is mainly in the healing profile difference of the two classes. Warriors tend to have a "spikier" profile than paladins because shield block isn't a constant effect and critical blocks makes each block more effective when a block does occur.

So it isn't necessarily that the warrior takes more or less damage than an equally skilled/geared paladin, it's that they take damage at a different rate and healers need to adjust their healing strategy to accomodate.

[Dayon]

I see. So I shouldn't let my guild make me feel like I'm a lesser tank just because I'm doing everything I can-- and I really am--, and I'm still dying. The paladin just seems easier to heal, then.

[geros]

easier isn't the right word. There are healing groups that have a lot of trouble with a paladin but can keep up their warrior tank without batting an eye.

[Bung]

I looked at your gear and im very jealous. I have no idea why any healer would have a difficult time with keeping you alive unless the pally is equally or better geared (if thats possible). The only change you can make imo is to change your glyphs/spec for more survival type stuff. Improved shield wall and glyph of shield wall, glyph of block. I guess these are more MT'ish glyphs/spec.
Bung

[Akeber]

I also want to be able to survive more than I've been able to, and I'm going to respec and reglyph to fit in that nice two-minute Shield Wall. It just seems more and more difficult to know when to pop my vast array of trinket and ability cooldowns.

This may be much of the reason your guildies say the other tank was "easier" to keep up. Using trinkets and cooldowns at the proper times can make all the difference in the world. If the paladin knew the fights like the back of his hand and popped CDs and trinks at all the right times, it may be the player and not the class.

Your expertise is below the dodge cap, which is hurting your threat, but it also means you're being parried fairly often. Extra parry hasted attacks will also increase your damage intake and the chances for multiple hits in a row within a short period of time.

[Aggathon]

This may be much of the reason your guildies say the other tank was "easier" to keep up. Using trinkets and cooldowns at the proper times can make all the difference in the world. If the paladin knew the fights like the back of his hand and popped CDs and trinks at all the right times, it may be the player and not the class.

Your expertise is below the dodge cap, which is hurting your threat, but it also means you're being parried fairly often. Extra parry hasted attacks will also increase your damage intake and the chances for multiple hits in a row within a short period of time.

I've made the analogy before and I'll make it again. Pallies are like an automatic transmission whereas warriors are a manual transmission. Capable of the same things, but pallies cooldowns are reactive and automatic (namely the parts of AD, dmg reduction and the instant LS if you were going to die). Warriors have various aspects that can act in those functions, and knowing when to pop cooldowns really can, as the posters before me have said, make all the difference in the world. I would argue that warriors have to just be more proactive.

[Satorri]

"Unhittable" has pretty limited value these days. Without crushing blows, it comes down to specific encounter mechanics, and those are not many that "unhittable" becomes a crucial value.

I don't think any of the tanking classes are particularly "automatic" so to speak, each class/spec has their passive tools and their active abilities that all get used differently.

[Aggathon]

"Unhittable" has pretty limited value these days. Without crushing blows, it comes down to specific encounter mechanics, and those are not many that "unhittable" becomes a crucial value.

I don't think any of the tanking classes are particularly "automatic" so to speak, each class/spec has their passive tools and their active abilities that all get used differently.

Pallies are the only one with a passive cooldown though.

[Bashal]

As a healer:

You're dying because the healers are convinced they can't keep you alive, so they don't try as hard. They figure (perhaps subconsciously) that if you die enough they'll put a nice "easy" paladin tank in place of you.

They sabotage their own efforts, even if that's not what they consciously mean to do.

I say this with conviction because I have healed all classes of tanks in a variety of encounters with no real noticeable difference in difficulty. The pattern of damage may differ but it's only "harder" if you are unfamiliar with it.

[Petninja]

I see. So I shouldn't let my guild make me feel like I'm a lesser tank just because I'm doing everything I can-- and I really am--, and I'm still dying. The paladin just seems easier to heal, then.

I've actually heard this argument before, only it was a lesser geared Paladin who was easier to heal. After the meters from the fight came back it showed that the healers actually spent considerably more resources healing the Paladin than the warrior and the paladin took more damage. Perhaps if you provided a link to your pally friend's armory.

[Dayon]

Well, this is mine
The World of Warcraft Armory

And this is the Paladin.
The World of Warcraft Armory

It's difficult to say who is really the better geared tank. He has Heroic Pieces I don't have, but he had zero tier armor. I'm rocking a four-set tier 9, but my guild favors him extensively. I know the fights as well as he does, when things happen, when bosses gain buffs that make them hit harder, and that's never when I die. I die to stupid things l like regular melee hits, things that are more difficult to predict.

Talking gear score, I'm well above his. He usually packs more stamina than I do, but he's recently gained several sockets over me, and he stacks two stamina trinkets. I prefer different combinations.

[jere]

The lack of tier gear doesn't really matter as much for him. The 4 piece set bonus is a nice one, but honestly the pieces themselves aren't all awesomeness. He did well to get the Onyxia helm and Jaraxxus legs.

His double stam trinkets are going to be a bigger advantage on some fights.

[Reev]

Dayon, if the healers are saying you're harder to heal, it's either their imagination, or you're doing something really strange, like turning your back or not using cooldowns right.

Your gear is fine, and your spec is fine. Next time you raid, keep an eye on a damage meter. Look at your damage intake compared to the paladin, then look at your healing intake compared to the paladin. That'll give you a better idea of how the healers are spending their resources, which could be a source of the problem.

It's really really important to build a good relationship of trust with your healers. Show them what you're doing to help them, and they'll do what they can to help you.

[protonly]

Both of you have stats that are close to the other looks like maybe a 1-2% difference in avoidance but that isn't factoring his libram which might boost his dodge up a good bit.

You'd prolly have to look at the logs and meters and put together a spreadsheet to figure out what is going on. It might just "seem" that you are harder to heal but the data might really be different but ppl are biased for some reason.

[uglybbtoo]

Concur with the above

- The pally has made some clever gear choices gearscore and no tier pieces his EH is slightly higher.

- Both tanks are surviving the big hit tests so when working right there is no difference.

- If the warrior is dying to normal melee hits the tank or the healers are doing something wrong .... time for some logs


Question: Is the pally tanks HP diving really low when he is tanking what you call the normal part of the fight?

[Dayon]

Concur with the above

- The pally has made some clever gear choices gearscore and no tier pieces his EH is slightly higher.

- Both tanks are surviving the big hit tests so when working right there is no difference.

- If the warrior is dying to normal melee hits the tank or the healers are doing something wrong .... time for some logs


Question: Is the pally tanks HP diving really low when he is tanking what you call the normal part of the fight?

It does dive a bit, but in smaller chunks. I rarely see him take a hit from full health and drop him to less than half.