[25 H Twin Valks] Sigh, so the door strat didn't work.
So we attempted the door strategy for around 20 wipes on wednesday, our next raid date is monday and i am looking for some strategy that will not make us wipe due to rng.
Our raid was setup like this.
All DPS and heals: dark essence
2 tanks: 1 dark essence, 1 light essence
2 hunters: Light essence as soakers
Our issue here was that we did not have enough dps to break the dark shield, we tried with blood lust, everyone switching, and even our personal cooldowns, but it didn't work. Another issue was receiving 2 light vortex's, especially one after another literally wiped us, since our holy paladins used AM+raid wall already.
If anyone has any useful suggestions, or strategies, any help would be appreciated. I tried reading every forum i found but many players did not go in depth with the strategy, and considering our is not working i really need to find a new one. =(
Yes, the door strat completely relies on RNG. 2 Dark Shields or 2 Light Vortexes means a wipe.
You could probably use a 3rd soaker. That soaker being light shield will do massive damage to the Dark Shield to help you out. Ours do 160+K damage each during the Dark Shield, they are the top dps for it. We have 3 hunters doing it. If you don't have another hunter, use a Mage or something.
Do you have a mod that can tell you how much damage people are doing to the shield? Which shows you how much more you need, and who fails at switching hitting the wrong target? If not, try this one: PhoenixStyle - Addons - Curse
You could probably drop to 1 tank as well, using Dark Essence. Threat could be a bit touchy at the beginning, just hold off a bit, let the MDs and Tricks run their course.
If all that still doesn't give you the dps, then you can rely on RNG a bit more. Ignore the first ability whatever it is, and hope it's the Dark Shield. Let them heal. Then try to kill it before RNG kills you (before 2nd dark shield / 2nd light vortex).
i could try that strategy. However i really do not wish to rely on rng lol. This is the strategy i was talking to people in my guild about using to beat them.
Allow me to share the 25man Heroic strategy my guild used to take them down last night, after several wipes on the more "regular" strategies.
The old idea
The more conventional tactics for this hardmode revolve around splitting the raid in two, and having one half protect the other from the wrong color orbs.
What we did was to have melee and healers as Dark and have range as white standing in a circle around the middle, trying to grab all the white orbs they could, while dodging the black.
Several problems occurred with this:
1. The black shield proved troublesome, since melee wouldn't have time to switch, and range would get twoshotted by wrong color orbs while trying to stand still and dps.
2. Light vortex was a b#&%h since melee+healers had to leave the safety of the middle to switch colors... twice. (first to light to survive, then back to dark to uphold the rules of the strategy)
3. Empowered Light/Dark is very often gained during Vortex, meaning that 90% of the time, either melee or range would have to discard the benefit, and switch back to their previous non-empowered color.
The new idea
My roommate, some guildies and myself spent an evening after our wipe raid to talk about the 3 problems I listed above, and here's what we came up with. (and in case you missed it, it works like a charm)
6-7 healers (we went with 7 since dps was no problem)
4 tanks (yes, alternative, but it will all make sense soon)
rest DPS (melee is to be prefered, but on our kill we actually had heavy range)
Our new strategy revolves around minimizing movement and color switches and thereby maximizing the benefit gained from Empowered Light/Dark while keeping fairly safe.
What we do, is to have the entire raid go dark except 3 tanks.
1 of them would be tanking Darkbane, and the 2 others will simply be "soak tanks" running around eating as many white orbs as the can before they get to the raid. The whole idea behind having tanks, is that their high hp allows them to be a bit less careful about dodging dark orbs, and thereby granting them the ability to shield the raid more effectively.
We stand like this (click me) so the melees can hit them in the back naturally. Additionally, we stack the raid. And when I say stack the raid, I really mean stack! Trying to hide inside your boomkin is to be recommended, since minimizing the area that wrong color orbs can hit is paramount to survival. The "soak tanks" will be running around the raid and eating up orbs all the time (they are not included in my drawing)
Now this all seems very simple, and the beauty of it: it's all there is to it!
Here's how this strategy deals with abilities (this is just an example order, to give you the idea):
Mmmm, free damage boost! (Soak tanks switch if they feel like it, or pop a cooldown)
No action required since the whole raid is already black and dps'ing the light one.
Again, a free damage boost, the whole raid is standing within clicking range of a light portal, so we simply click it, and take position by the dark portal in the front (like this) and STAY THERE. No reason to throw away our color, since now everything is just inverted. Our soak tanks will go dark, and start eating the other color, and all dps simply just switch targets.
If this one comes after Light Vortex, then no action is required like above, if it comes before, then the whole raid simply clicks the portal they are standing next to, dps it down, and take position by the dark portal.
So, we simply take a position depending on what color the raid is, and we will maximum have one switch of color per ability. Every color switch comes with a position switch, but once everyone gets it (it took us 2 tries to get the position switching done fast and properly), it is no problem at all.
This tactic is very very strong in dps, and can therefore easily afford the 7 healers and 4 tanks, since every correctly colored orb reaching the raid will buff all the dps at the same time, and no one is ever giving up an empowered light/dark.
The cost of this, is that every incorrectly colored orb reaching the raid, will damage everyone, but thats why you have the soak tanks.
The order of abilities will decide how many minutes you spend killing them and how many times you have to run back and forth between the two positions, but other than that it's not really a problem.
The "worst" order possible is Light Vortex - Light shield - Dark shield - Dark Vortex since you will have to move every single time, but it is still not harder in any way due to the fact that you are always standing next to the portal you'll need.
Any questions welcome in case I forgot something!
Here are the clickies again.
Where we should start off is here.
Where we should go AFTER opposite color vortex, or AFTER burning an opposite color shield.
Sounds interesting, but your links are not working for me.
We use 4 soakers and 2 tanks. If you have 2 hunters, then they have to be out there. A shadow priest works good and so do arcane mages. Arcane mages need to use mage armor and be specc'd into Magic Absorption for the 120 total extra resistance. They'll have no problems staying alive, it will be hunters you have to watch out for. Holy paladins with beacon on a tank(s) work well to constantly heal the soakers. But the more mages/spriests you can use to soak the better chance they have of staying alive. We also don't really have our soakers move... they just spread out and take the damage, because when they run around getting balls one of them will end up hitting a ball that hits 2 others.
Having 4 soakers makes the dark shield go down FAST. It also means if one of them dies, you can still get through it. 2 soakers with the light aura was never enough for us to get through the dark shield.
Another thing you will need to do is have EVERYONE in the raid switch to the dark twin as soon as you see the "Special Ability Soon" warning. That will stack debuffs on her and means you don't waste any time with people lagging on a target switch. If it's not the dark shield, then everyone just goes back to what they were doing. Once the dark shield is done, however, make sure ppl know they don't have to switch early anymore.
If you have 2 holy paladins, then you can handle a 2nd light vortex (i.e. the 5th one). If not, you can still get around it with just another paladin (ret) using his bubble sac. To help counter the damage, put a resto druid or boomkin in every group possible (we have 2 booms and 2 resto). Have them pop tranquility the instant they see "Light Vortex". They'll get their cast off a second or two before the vortex starts, getting the raid to full and giving massive healing during the vortex.'
If you get your 5th ability as the dark shield, just burn the light twin and hope for a kill. If not, wipe it up and go again. you won't wipe more than 1-2 times if things go right. Overall this makes the fight much easier.
We use a lot more people as light soakers to help break the dark shield.
We use 3 hunters, 2 mages, a ret paladin and 1 tank.
In addition, we have 2 warlocks who are picking up dark balls in the outside group.
Before a possible dark shield, all dps switch to the dark boss and the warlocks get close to changing to light color.
There are then 4 options
1) Dark shield - warlocks change color, everyone full burns.
2) Light shield - everyone switches to the other mob and full burns
3) Light explosion - warlocks change color, 2 priests divine hymn + 2 paladins bubble +sac (one 1s in, the other 3s in)
4) Dark explosion - ret paladin bubbles, hunters deterence, mages ice block
The second light explosion, we only had 1 priest and 1 paladin left and we lost quite a few people.
Sub 20% health, you can break a second dark shield with no problems and very very easily a second light shield
Video of our kill
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x18UZClyVDo]YouTube - Poseidon clears HToC25 Twin Valks: Oct15[/ame]
That seems ok and all, but i just feel like the door strategy isn't as safe as a strategy where you change colors and can move your entire raid, i just want a strategy where you know you will get the kill every week, and not worry about wiping.
3 weeks in a row we have either 1 or 2 shot it using door strategy. it's reliable.
We always 1 shot it with the door strategy. We have even gotten bad RNG and had 2 shields or 2 light vortex's. Granted a 2nd light vortex came at the end and 1/2 the raid died because CD's were down but we did it just the same.
Originally Posted by Roknroll
We use 3 soakers assigned to get the white orbs, some do make it to the raid but as long as its not 3-4 it's easily healable.
We also assign mages to be attuned white since they can IB through the dark vortex. That also helps break the black shield.
Another key thing for us is until we get a black shield everytime DBM says a special event is incoming 5 seconds out everyone changes to the dark sister in the event its the black shield. Having debuffs going up during that 5 seconds not to mention everyone already casting the shield dies much quicker.
Really, any other strategy for us was much more RNG and unreliable due to positioning.
For soakers we use 2 SP and a lock. Although really it can be any ranged class out there soaking. Though I do recommend not using mages because they can hide back at the door, attuned to white and IB and survive dark vortex.
On light vortex we use priest and paladin CD's on the raid and the tank healers help heal the raid. It's not like the tanks get hit hard especially with things like devine sac going.
We had issues with our members not really being able to soak. Tried it all before we settled down with a somewhat easier strat, where we trust our healers and soakers.
50/50 black & white
Stand as far back in the entrance as possible with 4 soakers on the outside. Tank Twins upon each other.
1 tank+lock = white
1 tank+ lock = black
Tanks and locks act as soakers
first shield = personal cd's
second shield = bl
3rd shield = personal cd's
Light vortex = raid shield wall, tranquility, personal survival abilities such as IB, CoS etc
Dark vortex = raid shield wall, tranq, personal etc
We also had two DK's with AMS and 2 dps paladins running out during each vortex to pop as many balls as possible ( guess i.e a SP with dispersion works as well )
Requires 2 paladins and a couple of druids and of course 4 soakers that knows how to soak.
It trivialized the fight, and the random factor was like nil after we made sure that all healers new exactly which took damage during light/dark vortex. I.E put all white in 2 groups and all dark in 2...and tanks, soakers in one grp for instance.
For the door strategy, if the majority of the raid has the dark essence, is it possible for them to all switch to light essence during light vortex? It seems to me that the distance between the door and the essences is the same as the distance between the center and the essences.
We did the door strat, and it was extremely easy. Setup:
Soaker: one shadow priest. All he did was grab white orbs and dps when possible. He did very little DPS (maybe 3.5k) but just grabbed balls.
Everyone else (including both tanks): black and stacked in the door on top of each other.
White shield: DPS normally. We took it down with 6 seconds to go.
Black shield: heroism + internal cds.
Black vortex: spriest disperses.
White vortex: Aura Mastery (fire), two DivSacs + bubble, every single person in the raid who can heal heals. Everyone uses a healthstone. Everyone uses a defensive CD if they have it.
This strat was shockingly easy. The DPS was insane (I, in my off-spec, did over 10k as ret). Our log is here, if you want to see it: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
sorry i didnt read most of the responses. i usually do our strat write ups (when i dont borrow the amazing ones from this site) for my guild. heres what we came up with for our kill. after trying the door strat we found having a few dps stay light was a bit too problematic...
After playing with the strat a bit, our kill shot went as follows:
1 Light Aura Tank
-Holds Darkbane, positions bosses next to each other
-Positions himself on the West side of the raid/other tank/dark stack; stays between the raid and dark aura tank about 10 yards from both. (Think triangle points)
-Intercepts Light orbs when possible (must be away from the dark aura players)
-Dodges Dark Orbs Constantly
1 Dark Aura Tank
-Holds Lightbane, positions bosses next to each other
-Positions himself slightly South West of the light portal, East of the light aura tank, south of the raid.
-Dodges both light and dark orbs when possible. Only able to strafe slightly since bosses positioning is touchy.
*Ideally, in this order, a Shadow priest, Hunter, Paladin, Mage or anything prot; reason being, they can cd the vortex and continue to intercept orbs. I.e. ice block is stationary thus least favorable but better then a lock that has to switch auras etc
-Surround the Tank and Dark Stack, 5 points covering a gap-area between each other.
-Take Light Aura
-Intercept all light orbs
-CD or switch for the dark vortex
-Dps darkbane when itís shielded (twin pact) but not at the risk of letting orbs by them
-Take Dark Aura
-Stack near Light Portal, North of both tanks (with melee and ranged dps, i.e. the rest of the raid)
-Never Switch Auras unless they're super squishy
-Bubble/Sac, Aura Master, Hymn, Tranquility and Defensive CD the Light Vortex as the raid will not switch and take about 9k dmg per tick
-Constantly Top raid due to potential of light orbs slipping in
-Ensure those who get the bosses touch are healed through it
-Take Dark Aura
-Stack tightly, on melee, with healers, next to the Light Portal, North of tanks
-React as follows:
*Light Vortex - Use personal defensive cds, pop healthstones and health pots if low, burn boss
*Dark Vortex - Eat it, love it, burn boss
*Twin Pact on Light Boss - You already dark, gratz, burn it, save cds
*Twin Pact on Dark Boss - Tighten buttocks, immediately switch to Light Aura, Target Darkbane. Either Lust, Personal CD or Both; burn it down and interrupt the heal. ...Once done, you need to run to one of the Dark Portals, Switch Auras back to Dark and get back safely. It's imperative you dodge orbs on the way and get back safely (not necessarily in 5 seconds or less); touching the wrong orb will get you and your friends killed.
^^ rinse repeat
Side Notes:-Healers with CDs not assigned to a vortex may and should use them when the raid switches to light. Dark orbs are going to hit the raid and they are no longer good for 12/19 people they used to not phase.
-DPS should save offensive cds for the dark shield. We lusted and personal cd'd the first one, we then got a second and Iíll assume personals were back up because by the grace of the flying spaghetti monster we killed it.
-Yes, your relying on interceptors to be amazing... youíre also relying on:
*healers people assigned cds to be flawless
*dps to be raging animals
*the dps to dodge just as good and maybe better then the interceptors when switching back to dark
*tanks to dodge just as much as ^^ the entire fight
*every healer to keep the raid topped in an insanely rng raid damaging fight
...point being: donít think 1 person being good at something wins this for you. You all have to execute and no ones gonna pat ur jimmy for it, its expected and your not killin the boss otherwise. 1 dps loss can be a deal breaker for the dark shield.
The way we do this is to have:
1 tank black
1 tank white
We then have an immune group consisting of mages and Spriests (min 3 max 5) who take white everyone else takes black
IF 1st ability is black shield ignore it let them heal.
For any other ability after this you use aura mastery + sacrifice on white vortex on black vortex your immune group uses immune abilitys on white shield its normal
IF a black shield is able to be cast you debuff the black boss 10 sec before the ability.
All CDs and heroism are used on black shield. Remember if the 1st ability is black shield dont bother.
We never reach a 5th ability unless we cock up. If the 1st one was black shield you pop heroism just before 4th ability to get them down before 5th.
The immune group will always dps the black mob.
Our guild has successfully done the door strat twice.
Our entire raid is dark minus 2 warlock ball catchers, 2 arcane mages and one tank.
Our warlock ball catches switch to light when a light vortex pops. Our mages stand in the raid and iceblock. Our tank stands still.
On our first kill we had a light vortex for the 5th special, and a dark shield for the 6th.
How we handle light vortex. Have 1 Pally Divine sac + Aura mastery while a Fire aura is up. We organize our groups by the ability to survive. We put all our rogues/DKs in one group. We put our hunters/mages/shadow priests in another group. What the final outcome looks like is 2 groups need zero healing to survive the vortex, and 3 groups need heavy healing. For those three groups we have a druid use Tranquility, and we have 1 priest use DH.
When we get to the 5th special, we have all our range move to the light essence and be ready to switch if it is a light vortex or dark shield.
Finally, on the ~6th special, if the bosses are low on health and a dark shield pops, you are better off ignoring the shield and DPS'ing the other add and just killing them before their heal can pop.
Things of note.
Arcane mages are gods on this fight. Incanters absorption is always up and any arc mage should easily be able to push 20k dps with cooldowns. This is why we have two stand in the raid while light attuned as they can help burn down a shield very easily.
If you have multiple druids, it makes sense to multiple in a single group and have them rotate tranq cooldowns. That way if you get a second light vortex, one will still have tranquility available (we use two for our healing group, one on the first light vortex, one on the second).
Also when DPSing down the dark shield. SWITCH EARLY. If the shield pops, the entire raid should already be on them doing max dps. If the shield does pop, then it won't require several seconds to reach max dps... if it isn't the dark shield, then everything else is easy to handle.
Even with Incanters absorption and ~3200 sp you wont reach 20k easily. This i currently the top meter for twins hm 25, and the mages are as high as 17-18k..but I would not say that mages would easily push 20k. It's very good if you can push 15k+.
Originally Posted by oraculum
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