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Thread: The Blood Tank - A discussion of my Experiences

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Staggering Stomp - Spell - World of Warcraft

    Interesting, I looked it up because I wasn't sure. I could've sworn my SCT flagged it as spell damage, but the tooltip reads physical. In fact, the Fire patches are the only source of magic damage in the fight.

    If it is a bug, you should make a nice video, Eint, I'd love to see it. That'd be a helpful trick!
    When I get home I will do some tests and make up some videos if the tests prove that my theory is correct.

  2. #22
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    Even if Staggering Stomp gave RP it would be almost irrelevant. By the time he casts stomps, the classes with the ability to pull agro will be switching to Snobolds, and your threat lead will be high enough that it is a nonissue.

  3. #23
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    Well, yeah, threat isn't the issue, but if you can get a bunch of RP, why wouldn't you want to? Like I pointed out, you won't be using AMS for Gormok otherwise.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #24
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    that's true satorri, but i would argue this is a situational and gimmicky use of AMS. Not only that, but DK's should be equipping themselves such that they can sustain enough RP generation to fill cooldown deadzones anyway.

    if there's little to no spell damage in the fight, then sure, it doesn't hurt to use it in this fashion. but it's certainly not advisable to do this within the first 5 seconds of any given boss pull.

    there are examples that could loosely fit into the OP's paradigm: for example: when pulling Onyxia, she usually gets off at least one Flame Breath attack before the tank can get her all the way to the rear of the cave. this is a great time to use AMS, especially since healing can be tricky on this pull. but here again, the use was not to inflate RP, but to prevent a magic damage spike. RP gain was a residual benefit. there should never be a situation where you need to use AMS as an RP-inflation ability. If you've glyph'd and talented properly, you should never have to, especially given how niche of an RP generator it is.

  5. #25
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    Funny sidebar. I made a fun Unholy spec that relied heavily on Death Coil/Unholy Blight. There are several fights, Ony included, but basically every encounter in ToC, where there are specific moments you can pop AMS and spam DC for a 4-5 CDs. On Ony I managed to get Unholy Blight ticking at 2k per second by AMS'ing her Deep Breaths. That was cathartic.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #26
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    see now there's an interesting synergy. something good came of this discussion after all...

  7. #27
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    According to the latest posts on AJ, AMS is currently bugged to give RP on any damaging attack, though it does not absorb any damage. There are a few fights where using AMS at the start of it could be worthwhile to gain the extra RP (even if it "isn't necessary").

  8. #28
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    Updated talent builds to improve damage mitigation in preparation for Patch 3.3. Also added Tips and Tricks section for Hysteria usage.

    Note: I can confirm that AMS does still give free RP when taking melee damage, it just wont mitigate the damage. Will post up video evidence soon.

  9. #29
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    You also managed to ignore all of the glaring misinformation and poorly thought out specs that we pointed out earlier. Guides don't work when they guide in the wrong direction.

  10. #30
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    I must admit, the past few days having people come here to "educate" us poor tanks over on tankspot has really touched me, except they all seem to have no clue. The Frost spec guy made me want to beat my head into a wall, and this guy makes me feel bad for all the work Sato put into his bad ass blood guide.
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  11. #31
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    PS Sato, I like to scare the tanks on Emalon while I am on the adds by running into melee range with the adds during overload and popping AMS for a quick RP boost. Helps if an add spawns right on your boss tank and you have stupid hunters/rogues.
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  12. #32
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    Ha ha. AMS is a great spell.

    I've been contemplating writing an article on all the tools that many DK's do not get best use out of. Spells like Empower Rune Weapon, Blood Tap, Death Pact, Army of the Dead, and even AMS to a degree.

    Also, I do appreciate that people want to contribute. While I share the disappointment that some of the people who try to don't seem to really understand what they're doing, I'd rather not taunt them into submission, but point out things they need to learn and hope that as they do, they keep the desire to share ideas. The community can always use smart people who think differently, that's where we get new innovations from, sometimes.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #33
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    You know you can cast icy touch while the target is in midair from a deathgrip, so not really lose a GCD. Didn't read anything much else in the post though, sorry, once I saw Satorri and Splug and a few others already active.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  14. #34
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    I don't want to taunt either... but he has 2 pages of people telling him mistakes, and his only edit is to revise the date and add in even MORE misinformation

  15. #35
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    ^^^^^^^^

    **Cheer Edge**
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  16. #36
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    There really hasn't been 2 pages of pointers about places to change. After running some numbers through a few parses from my raids I did decide to change my talent spec options because they made sense.

    I also updated the wording a few of the areas where I felt necessary based on feedback from the forums.

    At this point the only thing I am thinking needs editing before a Patch 3.3 update is the talent spec to something more like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.

    If you still have beef with certain areas by all means please feel free to point them out to me with some intelligent counter arguments.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Ha ha. AMS is a great spell.

    I've been contemplating writing an article on all the tools that many DK's do not get best use out of. Spells like Empower Rune Weapon, Blood Tap, Death Pact, Army of the Dead, and even AMS to a degree.

    Also, I do appreciate that people want to contribute. While I share the disappointment that some of the people who try to don't seem to really understand what they're doing, I'd rather not taunt them into submission, but point out things they need to learn and hope that as they do, they keep the desire to share ideas. The community can always use smart people who think differently, that's where we get new innovations from, sometimes.
    I am actually working on a guide very similar to this currently. There are a great deal of tools that the Death Knight class has which I rarely ever see other Death Knights fully utilize.

  18. #38
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    Just because it is fun. All those whining about my builds can refer to Suno's Fireside Chat - DK Endgame Tanking (Updated) - Elitist Jerks over at Elitist Jerks. Odds are you will find my Blood Tank talent build a bit familiar. =)

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nethervoid View Post
    "Vampiric Blood is the best reactive tanking talent we have as death knights, it's counter productive to use it without necessity."

    Was thinking this when I read it myself. Warriors get two of these sweet EH 'oh crap' buttons. Save them for an 'oh crap' or when an 'oh crap' is likely to happen. E.G. phase 3 Ony hits the ground at the entrance, you need to pull her to the other side, and she fears everyone: I pop zerk rage to get out of fear, and then probably shield wall or maybe both of my 'oh crap's.

    I use taunt on the pull if a boss is 'materializing' or otherwise not really chargable. It can't hurt to let DPS open up right away, and the taunt protects against a huge lucky crit right off the bat by a DPS. Generally I charge in and shield slam, but in some cases (DPS races) it can help to taunt on pull.
    This is important. Yes, you save your shieldwall/last stand/Icebound Fort etc. for situations that call for it. This is a smart thing to do, and your Onyxia example is perfect. I do the exact same thing.

    I think it's important though, to make sure that newer tanks realize that these cooldowns are not reactive in the sense that "oh my god, I've dropped below 10%! I need shield wall to save me!" Shield Wall will rarely save you if you get yourself into a situation where you've already taken a huge hit, are extremely low on health and have another big hit incoming. Where these abilities will save you are when you know big damage is coming, or you know that heals will be tight. Your Onyxia landing is a good example. If you wait until Onyxia hits you during the fear to pop your cooldown, then you may already be at 10k HP when the fear is over. At that point, a shield wall won't keep a cleave from killing you, while if you pop it right at the fear, your shield wall will only let you drop to maybe 20k, at which point you can easily survive another hit.

    The point is that these cooldowns need to be planned ahead and used proactively. And when you know there isn't a known damage spike coming up, there is nothing wrong with using a cooldown just to make life on the healers easier. If you know that you as a tank aren't taking too much damage, but the raid is taking huge damage, again, a cooldown, especially when announced to the healers, can make it easier for them to concentrate on the raid.

    I just think it's a mistake for people to use the word reactive when talking about the use of tanking cooldowns.

  20. #40
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    Suno is an idiot, first off. Linking to his "Fireside chat" is not a good way to start off a legitimate guide. EJ has gone downhill steadily for the past 2 years.

    On the flipside, your spec is actually closer to decent now. You removed the pointless talents and got talents with worth. The only problem I have with either is that you STILL have scent of blood, a talent largely worthless in the 3/3 form.

    You have Rune of Stoneskin Gargoyle listed as always better even if you don't need the 2% stamina, which is simply untrue. There are a lot of situations where fallen crusader would be better, and even a few situations in ICC where I imagine Spellbreaking may be superior.

    You have a rune dump for AoE before you use your remaining blood runes. Wrong.

    You are still wrong about AMS and its applications. It isn't hard to test, and I can only assume you are getting another RP buff from somewhere in your raid, or proccing SoB.

    By often I mean that the only reason not to use Vampiric Blood right when it is up, would be if you are fighting an encounter or boss that has a known ability which you are saving it for.
    Is again, MASSIVELY wrong. Vampiric Blood is one of the best reactive cooldowns in the game, and using it freelance is just irresponsible as a DK tank. Most people probably do underuse it... but there is a huge difference between hitting it nonchalantly and using it strategically.

    Not only is Death Grip a class defining ability with it's super cool graphic, it also happens to be the ONLY ability you should ever use when pulling mobs and bosses. This is not only due to the fact that it pulls your target directly to you (bosses and some mobs excluded), but guarantees that the target will attack you for 3-seconds making it impossible for silly DPS to pull aggro while you are getting the boss into position. Start EVERY fight with this ability to generate initial aggro.
    Is still, again, completely idiotic. You lose out on a taunt or pull later in the fight when you may actually need one at the gain of 0 threat. Opening with ANY ability is generally a much better tactic against heroic packs, and opening with any ability is ALWAYS a better tactic against a boss that's immune to DG. Hell, the mocking blow effect will wear off 99% of the time before bosses even get to you.
    The only time I would agree with this is pulling away from larger packs in a heroic where there would be a chance of agroing, or pulling caster mobs first so you can DnD everything easily. Sadly, we both know that wasn't your application.

    By now you should already know that Anti-Magic Shell is a handy method for mitigating spell damage as a Death Knight tank, but you might not be familiar with it's use as an early fight threat generation ability. One of the areas where Death Knights can run into trouble is if your attacks and Rune Strikes get parried or dodged a lot early in the fight due to the nature of random numbers. This is why Anti-Magic Shell should always be used at the start of the fight as well since it also grants free runic power based on damage taken. In a boss encounter, this roughly equates to a free bar of runic power per hit allowing you to spam Death Coil in-between rune abilities and thus generating extra threat at the start of the fight to lock aggro against your DPS raid members.
    How many times do we have to tell you that this is wrong?
    Unless you are using 4 piece Ulduar set (where you will gain 2% RP of 10% physical damage absorbed) this method is a complete waste the majority of the time. Most bosses simply do not cast magic spells at the start of a fight.

    Also. Again. Rune Strike can NOT be dodged or parried. It says it extremely large on the tooltip.

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