Yes, because mitigation and avoidance can't help with survival at all.... and you're the same Kalon? Wow.Originally Posted by felhoof
And again, this is part and parcel the problem... your inability to read things in context. I have said several times that I agree that you need a certain amount of health for those fights. You just refuse to acknowledge that because then you'd have no one to belittle... at least on this thread.I'm one of the few people out there that will argue that you need some degree of avoidance, armor, and threat stats and that things like polar gear/pvp gear can be detrimental despite having more overall EH than other pieces - but even with that noted, the important thing here is this: the person in question did not have enough health to survive reasonably the encounters they faced.
Bovinity and I are acknowledging that fact. You are not.
I've been agreeing, it's not "after all this time". I am just also saying that his other stats were lacking too... and they were... I even acknowledged that hit/expertise wasn't going to help him stay alive and looking at his dodge, it was okay. You didn't read that, did you? Sad.Now, if you're actually agreeing with us after all this time, great. There's just this horrible communication breakdown between you and every other poster here, and that's fine. It happens all the time.
Do you just make a habit of making crap up out of thin air? Can you please show me one place where I said you can do Gormok with 45k health? And while you're looking, I'll wait for you to suddenly notice the many times I agree, a certain amount of health is needed for that fight... go on... (almost willing to bet you'll come up with something else rather than to admit you're wrong here... takers?)But if you're still saying that you could do Gormok with 45k if you have a good balance of expertise, dodge, hit and stamina, you're simply wrong or deluded.
Maybe so, not real sure... I feel as if I have, in some ways, outgrown his forum as I've learned more by experience but I do go back from time to time to keep up with what he's got to say... mainly because he presents it as an adult, not an arrogant, egotistical prickSadly, BBB really isn't that strong of a tank any more. He advocates things like using mangle when trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs and hasn't kept up with spec/class changes very well. Which is a shame; I grew up reading his stuff, and his bear gearing guides were great. He's now gotten to the point where he doesn't write about what is good overall, he writes about what might work for him.
I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!
I hate to break it to you, but the only one that has been acting like an arrogant, egotistical anything is the one person that's been getting offended, throwing insults and acting like a petulant child this whole time at people who committed the heinous act of disagreeing with them.
my point has been made, thank you Bovinity. Now go join trade channel on your server, surely they miss you.
And for the record, it's been you and Felhoof's arrogance that has been offended because I disagree with the idiotic theory of igorning the stats that make a tank... you guys must surrond yourselves with "yes" men all the time as it's obvious that someone who can look at this and use just a smidgen of common sense and see that, although correct when the proper gear is already acquired, that your theory is moronic at best when people with insufficient gear is worn.
I've really no idea why I respond to the likes of you and Felhoof... I must need a new hobby.... associating with trolls is quickly losing its appeal.
Still waiting on a new record.
Last edited by Atheia; 10-25-2009 at 06:15 PM.
I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!
If i take 3 point out of IM and get IW, will it greatly affect my treat (aggro) ?
I'm just floored by the fact that you still don't understand that "Sufficient gear" and "Inufficient gear" are defined by meeting or not meeting the EH requirements of a boss, not item level or "well-rounded stats". That's why your comments are pretty much exactly the opposite of the truth...you need to get sufficient EH to survive, THEN you can start worrying about dodge, parry, etc to lessen the burden on your healers. You don't set a dodge or parry goal and then stack stamina from there.that your theory is moronic at best when people with insufficient gear is worn.
The reason, again, is that avoidance (and even mitigation sometimes) is unreliable. Even with an absurd amount of dodge, you're going to eat one of those tank-killing combos many times over the course of a fight, on any fight that challenges the tank...that holds especially true in ToGC, where the two fights that generally challenge the tank also have avoidance-unfriendly attacks. (Impale on Gormok cannot be dodged and of course neither can the resulting DoT. Freezing Slash on Anub cannot be dodged and it stuns you, so the following melee won't get dodged either, and Swarm naturally isn't getting dodged.)
There's only one thing you can do on those fights - or any boss fight, really - and that's to have the sufficient EH to ensure that you survive those scenarios. No amount of dodge or other well-rounded stats will do anything. You'll eat the damage and you'll die and the raid will wipe. Yes, armor contributes to EH as well, but generally you can't "stack" armor all that much. If there were a +armor gem, I'd probably get some!
In ToGC that "sufficient stamina" marker is set so high that anyone looking to tank them really has no choice in the matter but to stack stamina. I've tanked heroic Gormok-25 with warriors sporting 50k raid buffed and they just exploded. At 57k buffed, I'm still getting that "LOW HEALTH" warning constantly from MSBT. =O (This is why I've never finished beasts on ToGC 25...I've actually tanked Gormok by myself until worms come out because the other tank gets gibbed, but that's obviously a wipe.)
And that's what Felhoof and I are getting at...there's really no choice in the matter, regardless of your gear. It doesn't matter how good or how bad your gear is (My gear is actually pretty sub-par, if you really look at my armory) if you want any hope of tanking those encounters successfully, you simply have to grab all the stamina you can.
Of course, this is part of why I love my druid...I can hit that EH threshold much faster than other classes and it offers me some flexibility.
I'll say again, we don't like that. No one really likes it. I actually wish that they'd make more encounters with damage profiles that aren't so stupidly spiky. But they didn't, they made fights like Gormok. So tanks are stacking stamina, healers are just spamming heals constantly, and no one is really impressed by it all.
Nope. Actually, surprising as it is, a lot of math shows that generally the rotation WITHOUT Improved Mangle ends up resulting in equal threat for most people. And if no one else is putting up the attack speed debuff, you basically NEED Infected Wounds.If i take 3 point out of IM and get IW, will it greatly affect my treat (aggro) ?
Last edited by Bovinity; 10-26-2009 at 07:43 AM.
Very likely not, especially if you're the one responsible for keeping up demo roar. Though I'm starting to think that it affects it more than we've thought; bears often have to do a lot of other things on the GCD that aren't the typical rotation, and imp mangle is better when you have to do other things. Still, your biggest threat source by far is maul.If i take 3 point out of IM and get IW, will it greatly affect my treat (aggro) ?
Mitigation helps, but since you didn't actually suggest he improves his mitigation one bit early on, guess you're not on that page.Yes, because mitigation and avoidance can't help with survival at all.... and you're the same Kalon? Wow.
Dodge doesn't help with survival except in very select circumstances where statistically avoidance is relevant and you must limit total damage taken. Those aren't the majority of fights, and more importantly those aren't the fights the OP cares about.
Hit and expertise certainly don't help with survival, and that's what you suggested first.
And you know what? His hit and expertise are absolutely fine. They're not even low; they're right where they should be. Could they be better? Yes, but only if he gimped his gear with bad pieces to increase them. His dodge is perfectly fine; 45% raid buffed after DR. His stats are almost precisely where they should be to start tanking heroic beasts.
Atheia, you keep calling me arrogant - but I'm not the one that didn't read the original poster's question, didn't look at their armory particularly in-depth, didn't understand their problem and then decided to post in their thread asking for help so that I could give them an answer no one else agreed with. If I'm arrogant because I like hearing the sound of my own voice, answer me this: why did the OP actually listen to me instead of you? Why did you post in a help thread when you weren't going to bother actually reading what the OP was asking for or understanding what they needed?
I love this thread.
It's been a nice debate between EH and other stats. (threat, avoidance, etc.)
Granted, it's full of trolls... I learned plenty about general tanking consensus.
Nobody wants to stack a single stat to the exclusion of all others - it takes a lot of fun out of the game. However, to clear *every* encounter, one must reach a certain EH threshhold before having any sort of flexibility.
That sounds like a pretty good take-home message to me.
And I'm just about there without having to exclude the other stats (with the exception of expertise, but more gear on the way).
As For Felhoof... until you quote the places where I have already acknowledged that his dodge was fine (I'll give you a hint, first page), where hit and expertise wouldn't help his survival (same first page.... see, I'm dang near holding your hand through this exercise), and said high HP is certainly a good thing (several pages there, you'll have to work a wee bit) I'm just going to ignore you as a typical blowhard troll who hasn't the ability to take things in context rather cherry picks to start an argument for the sake of trying to impress people with some grand knowledge...
I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!
Then what has your point been in the last 4 pages, Atheia? Because all we've seen - and all we've been trying to dispute - was your claim that somehow you should get "geared" before stacking stamina.
I'm still not sure what your definition of "geared" for any particular fight would be, and at what point you would suggest that someone feel comfortable getting more stamina?
Of course, our issue - as I've stated MANY times - with this definition is that generally speaking, being "geared" for an encounter is defined by your amount of EH relative to the EH requirements of the encounter. So without any specifics - which you've been reluctant to give - it's hard to even understand what your point is when you say "get geared before getting more stamina".
Again, Atheia - I took you to task because your first statement was incredibly useless and actually completely wrong:
Stam stacking doesn't end up with the same result if you're dying because you don't have enough HP. You're completely wrong.Avoid stam stacking until you get the rest of your stats where they need to be (stam stacking without the right stats elsewhere means more work for the healer and the same end result). Increase your dodge, hit, and expertise... you have some nice gear though.
As for your spec, nothing really there that you could do to keep you from "dying"... not real sure why you chose to not include feral aggression or infected wounds... not being critical, just asking if there was a reason... I'm always open to making changes to improve.
Sorry I wasn't much help.. what little advice I was able to lend, I did so based on experience. Surely some uber bear tank will come along and teach us all!
He had fine hit and expertise. You're completely wrong.
He had fine dodge as well. Again, completely wrong.
There are plenty of things - like getting FA and IW - that would help him not die. Again, completely wrong.
Finally, your advice that you lent was based on experience that was well below his experience and wasn't relevant to his experience.
Now since then you've backpedaled a few times and stated that his dodge is okay and that you didn't mean that he should get more hit and expertise or stack it. Fine.
You're still - to this moment - disagreeing that he should stack stamina. You're still stating that plenty of other tanks don't stack stamina and they do fine. You're still saying that having balanced stats is more important than having a ton of stamina no matter what else.
All of those things are simply wrong.
The worst part is that not only are the wrong, they're completely irrelevant to the original poster. They don't address the OP's problem. They in fact are exactly the wrong thing for that person. You didn't bother trying to figure out what that person's needs were or even answer his question. Heck, you even admit that yourself!
So why bother replying to a help thread if you're not going to actually provide any help? Which one of us do you think likes to hear their own voice more?
Good luck with that too; you obviously haven't looked at the leather gear in ToC very much.And I'm just about there without having to exclude the other stats (with the exception of expertise, but more gear on the way).
So you saying that avoidance and mitgation doesn't help... clever, Felhoof
unless they changed hit cap and how managing threat works for bear tanks on all other servers besides mine, no, he didn't have.He had fine hit and expertise. You're completely wrong.
And within minutes of saying he needed more dodge, I retracted the statement by saying his dodge was fine... proof that you're ignoring the parts of this thread... but of course, we already knew that.He had fine dodge as well. Again, completely wrong.
Already said I had missed the "heroic" part of it and even stated to him that my advice was limited based on what little experience I have.Finally, your advice that you lent was based on experience that was well below his experience and wasn't relevant to his experience.
within minutes doesn't really qualify as backpedaling... man, you're reaching hard for anything, aren't you... I'm actually a wee bit embarrassed for you. I still recommend, based on his original post, he needed more hit and expertise.Now since then you've backpedaled a few times and stated that his dodge is okay and that you didn't mean that he should get more hit and expertise or stack it. Fine.
I'm even going to type this slowly for you as apparently you're having a very difficult time comprehending this:You're still - to this moment - disagreeing that he should stack stamina. You're still stating that plenty of other tanks don't stack stamina and they do fine. You're still saying that having balanced stats is more important than having a ton of stamina no matter what else.
If you have the gear for it, there is nothing wrong with stacking stamina (in fact, I am now with my recent gear upgrades that put me well over hit and at 44% dodge).
Yes, I did admit that I misread it... a mistake was made on my part... but you started your attack, not going to back down from morons, sorry... not in my nature.The worst part is that not only are the wrong, they're completely irrelevant to the original poster. They don't address the OP's problem. They in fact are exactly the wrong thing for that person. You didn't bother trying to figure out what that person's needs were or even answer his question. Heck, you even admit that yourself!
Same question to you, why bother? If you think your almighty wisdom has settled the issue, why continue attacking me, misrepresenting what I have said, making things up out of nowhere? Hmm, felhoof? Trolling, perhaps? Other threads not interested in you right now?So why bother replying to a help thread if you're not going to actually provide any help? Which one of us do you think likes to hear their own voice more?
Thanks for the good luck wishes and I have looked at leather gear in toc... apparently you didn't read the words directly after that, that suggested I was working on getting more gear.... typical.Good luck with that too; you obviously haven't looked at the leather gear in ToC very much.
I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!
Okay, now I feel like there's a hidden camera here and some guy is going to pop out and say, "Surprise, you're on Candid Forums".... no one is this daft and capable of completing entire sentences... but on the off chance I'm wrong about this, I just point you to the many posts before I have answered this same idiotic question about gear to save myself having to type it out again.
But if that is too much for you as it is for Felhoof to go back and read things in context, I'll do you this favor and try to just spell it out for you again: Gear that increases the stats needed for a druid tank (avoidance, mitigation, hp) all of that can be acquired without having to focus strictly on stacking stamina.... I have spent a couple of days looking at tanks and have seen both, stam stackers and those that don't... looking at their achievements, the ones that have actually tanked Htoc25 already have sufficient amount of dodge, expertise, threat just by virtue of their gear where they can afford to stack stamina for more HP.... if english isn't your first language, let me know, I can have that translated into french, german, or spanish (my girlfriend doesn't speak anything else so we're stuck after that unless you need it in pig latin, I can handle that)
(I have to admit that you're closer to getting what I have said than felhoof... at least you put gear in the same sentence before distorting everything else... Felhoof just makes things up as he goes along... almost as if he's having a conversation on this thread while trolling another and getting the two mixed up).
Last edited by Atheia; 10-26-2009 at 02:24 PM.
I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!
See, there you go again. You're not giving any specifics or explaining your point, and you just try to hide behind, "You're so duuuuuuumb." comments.
I'm not sure you have a point, you're just disagreeing to disagree now.
Yes, I am saying that if you don't have enough HP to survive an encounter, getting more avoidance and mitigation doesn't help. That's not a hard concept. If you don't have enough HP...getting more dodge won't help you have more HP. I'm confused why this is so difficult for you to accept.
His threat is fine. He mentions not having any problems with threat. Why do you think you need hit and expertise, anyway? Do you think you'll instantly die if you aren't at the dodge cap for expertise or if you can possibly miss an attack?unless they changed hit cap and how managing threat works for bear tanks on all other servers besides mine, no, he didn't have.
You still haven't detracted the hit/expertise part. You're still wrong about that, and you're still - right now! - suggesting that more dodge would somehow make him survive better.And within minutes of saying he needed more dodge, I retracted the statement by saying his dodge was fine... proof that you're ignoring the parts of this thread... but of course, we already knew that.
Right - so why bother replying? What, exactly, did you think you were going to be helping him with?Already said I had missed the "heroic" part of it and even stated to him that my advice was limited based on what little experience I have.
And you're still utterly wrong.within minutes doesn't really qualify as backpedaling... man, you're reaching hard for anything, aren't you... I'm actually a wee bit embarrassed for you. I still recommend, based on his original post, he needed more hit and expertise.
Okay, and I'll say it slowly too:I'm even going to type this slowly for you as apparently you're having a very difficult time comprehending this:
If you have the gear for it, there is nothing wrong with stacking stamina (in fact, I am now with my recent gear upgrades that put me well over hit and at 44% dodge).
Hit and expertise are completely irrelevant compared to having enough health and armor for a fight. Your implication is that if you don't have enough hit and expertise, you should gem/enchant/gear for it regardless of your stamina.
And that is wrong. Totally, completely, wrong.
The difference is that I've stated that you're simply ignorant and wrong. That's not a personal attack; it's arguing against what you're actually saying. You've gone directly to ad hominem attacks because the actual argument that I"m presenting? Is correct.Yes, I did admit that I misread it... a mistake was made on my part... but you started your attack, not going to back down from morons, sorry... not in my nature.
Waiting on builds. Also, I don't want anyone to think for a second that following your advice would result in good success. If everyone reads this thread and sees how bad your advice is, my posting will have value.Same question to you, why bother? If you think your almighty wisdom has settled the issue, why continue attacking me, misrepresenting what I have said, making things up out of nowhere? Hmm, felhoof? Trolling, perhaps? Other threads not interested in you right now?
I was saying that if you're expecting to get more expertise in ToC, you're sadly mistaken. There just isn't that much gear with expertise. You're going to have a hard time getting close to the dodge cap for it as you get better gear. Which means for you you'll have to decide on either using the upgrades at all (as you'll lose a lot of expertise) or regemming everything to have expertise as you upgrade. Neither is optimal. Neither is necessary.Thanks for the good luck wishes and I have looked at leather gear in toc... apparently you didn't read the words directly after that, that suggested I was working on getting more gear.... typical.
And the fact that you're missing my point would lend to an approrpiate response of "You're so duuuuuuumb". Amazing, absolutely amazing.
Okay, Bovinity, I'll bite, what do you need to be more specific since you're not getting that with increased stats on gear means increased stats for the character (i.e. + hit raises hit - +agility raises dodge - +armor raises armor - +plus attack power raises attack power [this is incredible... just floored as I type this out] - +expertise raises expertise)....
I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!
Okay, here's a challenge for you, Atheia:But if that is too much for you as it is for Felhoof to go back and read things in context, I'll do you this favor and try to just spell it out for you again: Gear that increases the stats needed for a druid tank (avoidance, mitigation, hp) all of that can be acquired without having to focus strictly on stacking stamina.... I have spent a couple of days looking at tanks and have seen both, stam stackers and those that don't... looking at their achievements, the ones that have actually tanked Htoc25 already have sufficient amount of dodge, expertise, threat just by virtue of their gear where they can afford to stack stamina for more HP.... if english isn't your first language, let me know, I can have that translated into french, german, or spanish (my girlfriend doesn't speak anything else so we're stuck after that unless you need it in pig latin, I can handle that)
Find one - one - druid tank that is not primarily gemming or enchanting for stamina that is gemming or enchanting for hit/expertise.
Especially: find one that is doing so such that they are at or past the expertise dodge cap.
Heck, link 3 that are not stacking stamina that have done HToGC to any extent. My clairvoyant view believes that in their cases, one of three things will be true:
1) They are gearing for Anubarak and are minimizing health
2) They are in their DPS gear
3) They aren't past beasts.
You're just trying too hard, honestly.Okay, Bovinity, I'll bite, what do you need to be more specific since you're not getting that with increased stats on gear means increased stats for the character (i.e. + hit raises hit - +agility raises dodge - +armor raises armor - +plus attack power raises attack power [this is incredible... just floored as I type this out] - +expertise raises expertise)....
No one has questioned what the stats do. What I want to see is for you to be specific about what you considered to be "geared enough" for ToGC 25 so that someone can stack stamina. I want you to stop dodging, stop with the silly insults, and just come out and tell us what you think is enough dodge, agility, hit and expertise. How much should they have before they should stack stamina to tank ToGC 25 beasts and - most importantly - **why you think that it would help them to survive more than stacking stamina first.**
That's all I want to see. Lose the attacks, lose the attitude, stop with the vague comments. Just answer the question.
The conventinal wisdom for all tank classes since patchwerk 1.0 (this is the first real fight where tank deaths became an issue, maybe twin emps) has been this in terms of gearing priority for an encounter:
Stack EH to survive a normal healer rotation > Stack threat stats to keep DPS from being threat capped > Stack avoidance to lessen the load on healers.
Your advice is the exact opposite of all convential wisdom found here on tankspot. 53k is as light as you want to ever go for beasts as anything less can result in an instant death from gormok. Once you are confident that you can survive all unavoidable deaths feel free to stack threat stats and avoidance stats. Stacking them prior to having enough HP just results in a tank going splat.
This thread makes me want to flay kittens.
A lot of them.
And I feel bad for the original poster (though he does seem to have taken the proper advice here).
This thread makes me never want to roll w/a feral tank, tbh.
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