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Thread: A druid tank needs help

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Also, Atheia - now I'm curious. What encounters are you doing 'fine' in, and what kind of stats are you sporting? If you're not stacking stamina via trinkets, gemming, etc - how are you handling things like Gormok's impale/melee/impale tick damage on 25 man hard mode?
    Not doing hardmode quite yet as I'm not prepared to... I know my limits.

    I also never said I didn't have stamina trinkets, I do... I just don't consider stacking stamina to be the magical fix for tanking.

    As for my stats, I'm only about 39k unbuffed still, 39% dodge, 248 hit (need more, stat food hit just seems cheesy to get where I need to be), 214 expertise (more, more, more). I have a ways to go to meet your level of uberness, Felhoof... but one day I aspire to be just like you... hopefully without being so easily offended though

    and for the record, getting those bracers made you mentioned, those are sweet

    P.S. Going to regem all my gear tonight for ToC (taking other gems just in case) to see if there is a huge difference... if not, I'll report back that in fact, you were right and I was 100% wrong (although I have a feeling it wouldn't matter, you already think you're 100% right regardless)
    Last edited by Atheia; 10-23-2009 at 02:13 PM.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  2. #22
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    For normal modes it doesn't matter. There's nothing in normal modes right now that remotely pushes anything in terms of effective health; you could be tanking it easily in Ulduar or Naxx-levels of gear without problem.

    But I bet that if you did try hard mode you'd be hosed in the gearing you're doing.

    I also bet that if you decided to go with stamina instead, you'd probably be okay.

    And I don't take offense, but it's just...well, it's silly to come in and claim that you know what's working when you didn't bother looking at their armory, you didn't bother reading the other posts, and more importantly you didn't bother actually thinking about their question and assumed that because you're doing fine in your content that applies to whatever they're doing. I mean, you basically said that because you can tank anything in normal ToC that he should be fine tanking anything in heroic ToC if he only improves his hit and expertise.

    I realize that you don't have the experience there, but to those of us who have tanked that - this is just ludicrous on its face. Heck, it's odd anyway - the problem that he posed was 'I am dying too much, help'. And your response to this is to...have him get more threat and more dodge.

  3. #23
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    so how much sta/HP u recon i stack up to ? what about my dodge ? should i make it atlest 40% unbuff or dont care ?

  4. #24
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    my treat is at the bother line as well ><

  5. #25
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    my treat is at the bother line as well ><
    I don't pretend to understand that.

    Right now you're at about 33k armor and 51.5k health. That's very low to deal with Gormok via using barkskin, especially later on in the fight. I'd recommend aiming for at least 55k health. If you do what I suggest you should be at or above that. To sum up, that was:
    regem the shoulders, chest, weapon, hands with nothing but stam gems
    get gladiator enchant for shoulders
    get a second stamina trinket like black heart or heart of iron
    get death-warmed belt

    As to dodge: I don't personally care. If you're dying, dodge isn't going to save you consistently. With those stats and that gear set you should have a post-DR dodge rate of about 45%, which is more than sufficient.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    For normal modes it doesn't matter. There's nothing in normal modes right now that remotely pushes anything in terms of effective health; you could be tanking it easily in Ulduar or Naxx-levels of gear without problem.
    Not sure a tank geared out of Naxx would have much luck with toc25 but then again, I've seen people geared with t9 fail in ulduar 10... suppose gear is just too easy to come by nowaways


    But I bet that if you did try hard mode you'd be hosed in the gearing you're doing.
    I doubt it...

    I also bet that if you decided to go with stamina instead, you'd probably be okay.
    We'll see but just told my guild of this and the healers weren't near as impressed as you seem to be with the idea

    well, it's silly to come in and claim that you know what's working when you didn't bother looking at their armory, you didn't bother reading the other posts, and more importantly you didn't bother actually thinking about their question and assumed that because you're doing fine in your content that applies to whatever they're doing. I mean, you basically said that because you can tank anything in normal ToC that he should be fine tanking anything in heroic ToC if he only improves his hit and expertise.
    I will admit that I missed the "heroic" part of it and because I did look at his armory and the stats he posted, I didn't expect it to be heroic. However, I think it's is silly that you continue to say I said improving his hit and expertise would be his cure all. It obviously shows that you're more interested in hearing (reading in this case) yourself talk than following the thread. In fact, I even said that it isn't about keeping him alive rather than making him a better tank, that's all... interesting that you say you take no offense yet you're reaching to belittle anything I say. Odd?

    I realize that you don't have the experience there, but to those of us who have tanked that - this is just ludicrous on its face. Heck, it's odd anyway - the problem that he posed was 'I am dying too much, help'. And your response to this is to...have him get more threat and more dodge.
    And again, shows you're not even remotely following the thread. My response was far more than just get threat and dodge (although more dodge would be helpful, regardless of what you say.. not the cure all but certainly in addition to expertise, stamina, and armor).

    Now, Felhoof, read the thread and not just your own words, you'll be okay, I promise.. take a deep breath.

    Finished with this thread as I merely tried to help and trolls like Felhoof need egos stroked and that's not my department... good luck with your htoc25 problems... hope you don't get cussed by healers, jibaikia... remember, take what you like, leave the rest.

    And for the rest, thanks for some interesting insight and not butt hurt replies. I've actually learned something today!
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  7. #27
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    Okay, Atheia, I'll go through step by step and show you where you erred:

    First statement you made:
    Avoid stam stacking until you get the rest of your stats where they need to be (stam stacking without the right stats elsewhere means more work for the healer and the same end result). Increase your dodge, hit, and expertise... you have some nice gear though.
    You suggest nowhere that he should get stamina or armor. Point of fact, you suggest he avoid doing this.

    Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable. The hit and the expertise just helps in other areas as well (doesn't save you but creates a better tank). I tank these just fine and I don't stack stamina to impress people with high HP (gotta have a certain amount, sure, but my stats are fairly solid all the way around because I ignore the "stam stacking" obsession - of course, I don't tank places I'm not ready to tank). And yes, I have more to do. Haven't quite gotten to the Uber level of Felhoof but then again, haven't been playing near as long.. one day, oh yes, one day!
    You then suggest that stamina stacking is useless, and that hit and expertise makes you a better tank...when that's really not his problem. You then say you tank these just fine (you don't) and you don't see the problem.

    All of these things are 100% wrong and show that you're not actually reading his question or thinking about what he needs, or even show that you understand what's going on or what problem he's trying to solve.

    I might be a dick, but at least I'm actually trying to solve the problem. I confess that sometimes I'm abrasive. But I'm useful. I'll take abrasive usefulness over cheerful ignorance any day.

    Then we go to more ignorance:
    I agree totally, but as you pointed out, the "higher-end encounters" would also lend to one thinking that the tank was prepared to go in such places and therefore already be well rounded.. not always the case. As gear progresses (i.e. Felhoof's gear which is quite sweet) you can afford to start stacking stamina because you have the rest of the stats squared away, for the most part.
    How do you think you get prepared to do said encounters? I tanked HToC for the first time in a bad mix of Ulduar and ToC gear. I did so successfully because I did read up on the encounters and figured out that I needed stamina to survive above all else. It doesn't matter if you have well-rounded stats if you die a minute into the fight because you don't understand the fight's mechanics and don't get how much health you need.

    I don't stack stamina to show off. It's not an epeen thing. Point of fact, in my highest-progression tanking set I have way less health than I could, because for that encounter it's more important not to. But in neither set are my stats 'well rounded'.

    I suppose.. he did however list all of his stats and linked to his armory to look at his talents therefore showing more needed to be done rather than stacking stam... but whatever, I don't stack stamina and do just fine. I was merely giving my opinion on the matter. Everyone has their own "sure fire way" to do it... so, take what you like and leave the rest.
    Okay, let's go with this notion of 'everyone can do it however they like'.

    The situation is this: at a certain level of rising anger in the fight with Gormok, he has the potential to do a melee hit, an impale, and do an impale bleed tick. These things combined happen in about 1.2 seconds, and with barkskin will do somewhere between 48 and 53k damage.

    If you don't have 53k health, you die there. Period. Nothing your healers can do will save you. You just keel right over. You can get them to put another cooldown on you - and then you'll die on the next impale, because you won't have enough cooldowns. I guess you can stack a bunch of people with a bunch of cooldowns and have them rotate along.

    Now you tell me - is it better to do whatever you like in gearing and then occasionally just die when the RNG gods feel like (which is basically about 45% of the time) - and maybe, let's get another couple points of dodge so that you now only die 43% of the time (only one of those attacks is avoidable). Or is it better to get to that threshold where you can survive that 100% of the time?

    That's not really a choice. You can either live 100% of the time or 57% of the time.

    I'm like Bovinity, mind you - I'd LOVE a reason to do something other than go for stamina. I liked it a lot before 3.08, when druids could stack more avoidance. I'd love it if druids had a better reason or a requirement to get some kind of balance in their stats.

    But they don't. And the encounters don't lend themselves to it either.

  8. #28
    Like a bad accident, I don't want to see it but can't help but look:

    Again, you're implying that I'm saying stamina is useless period, end of story, that's it, see ya later... it shows me that you're simply trying your hardest to impress more people with your knowledge (which you seem to have a lot of) and deception rather than taking what has been said in context but I can turn this around like you have, you're trying to say a druid tank doesn't need dodge or expertise and stamina will make him an uber tank. That sitting there taking hits, over working a healer, is the best course of action to take... sorry, I just disagree with that philosophy and so does most of what I've read in my short bear tanking career.

    Stamina is a plus... I'd love to have more HP but I won't and at the same time give up other stats that are important.

    Yes, you are a dick... see, I can agree with you on some things

    And I already admitted I was wrong about the heroic thing... but based on his stats, I wouldn't expect him to be in the heroic 25 man ToC... was a mistake on my part and I've already admitted it.

    As for your obsession with Gormok, I understand the fight and understand what is needed for it... hence my reason for not doing it quite yet... because I'm not prepared, like the original poster, to do that fight. I will soon enough and not having to give up dodge, expertise, hit, or anything else to do it, therefore, everyone has their own sure fire way of doing it, this is mine, yours is obviously stacking stamina. Congratulations.

    As for the ToC25 (NOT HEROIC AS I THOUGHT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT - my mistake) I do just fine, so considering I made a mistake and already admitted to it once, I will say that doing these are ways to prepare me on several levels: gear, emblems, experience, etc.

    Okay, really, now I'm bored. You're feeble attempts to distort what has been said on a whole has grown not_so_interesting. Thanks for the thread, I've learned a lot about gear, the fights, and Felhoof to say that it wasn't a complete waste of time.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  9. #29
    I will soon enough and not having to give up dodge, expertise, hit, or anything else to do it, therefore, everyone has their own sure fire way of doing it, this is mine, yours is obviously stacking stamina. Congratulations.
    But you'll be ready on virtue of your EH level, that's pretty much it. Unless you're gemming for insane amounts of Expertise or something, you're not "giving up" anything.

    And yes, his way is stacking stamina. So is everyone elses' way. Because that's just what the fight demands. No one *likes* it, it's just how it is. Like he said, you'll take X amount of damage and you'll need X+1 to survive it. That's just how it is. No amount of avoidance will save you. (Especially on impale and freezing slash!)

    It's not that you're "giving up" other stats in order to "stack" stamina...you're trying to reach the stamina requirement for the fight, period.

    In normal, yeah, you can get away with having fairly low HP, kinda like how I was talking about Naxx. But I'm fairly sure - maybe not - that the survival requirements in Heroic ToC 10 are actually higher than Normal ToC 25, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Things change quickly there.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post

    And yes, his way is stacking stamina. So is everyone elses' way.
    Actually, you're very wrong... it's not the way everyone else does it. It just happens to be the way you do it and the very limited number of people on this thread do it. I'm sure there is a much larger number of people that stack stamina but I can find plenty of people who don't stack stamina in liu of the other stats as you guys seem to recommend.

    I guess I've not reached that level of arrogance in my gaming venture with WoW to think my way is the only way... let's hope I don't.

    And I need to read up more on this HToC 25 man... I could have sworn there were other bosses besides Gormok where a well rounded tank would come in handy as well... or maybe it's just a whole lot easier than people made it out to be, high HP means full clear... heh, time to go learn some more. Thanks for the time guys, certainly has been entertaining. See you on another thread....
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  11. #31
    Actually, you're very wrong... it's not the way everyone else does it. It just happens to be the way you do it and the very limited number of people on this thread do it. I'm sure there is a much larger number of people that stack stamina but I can find plenty of people who don't stack stamina in liu of the other stats as you guys seem to recommend.
    How are we wrong on this? In ToGC 25 - on fights that are tank intensive - tanks are getting hit like a truck, and many times with unavoidable damage. There's a requirement to how much HP you need, and that's just how it is.

    This isn't me or Fellhoof saying, "This is OUR way! Hah!!" nor is it arrogance or the way we play. It's what the fights demand.

    What you're basically saying is the equivalent of looking at a fight where you need to do 5 million damage in 5 minutes and telling us, "Well, YOU might try to get 1 million damage/minute, but that's not how I do it."

  12. #32
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    now i have like
    33137 hp
    7720 armor
    29.82 dodge
    176 hit
    21 exp
    1889 ap
    24.57% crit

    isit good enough ?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    How are we wrong on this? In ToGC 25 - on fights that are tank intensive - tanks are getting hit like a truck, and many times with unavoidable damage. There's a requirement to how much HP you need, and that's just how it is.
    Again, someone who takes things out of context... and to think, I thought it was just Felhoof.... you're wrong, if you look at the quote added, by saying that everyone does it this way. That isn't true... not everyone stacks stam in liu of other stats needed to tank. Period.

    What you're basically saying is the equivalent of looking at a fight where you need to do 5 million damage in 5 minutes and telling us, "Well, YOU might try to get 1 million damage/minute, but that's not how I do it."
    And that's not even remotely close to what is being said. Here's what I'm getting from you guys:

    Stack stamina, don't worry about upgrading your gear, don't worry about preparing to actually fight this gormok the stam stacking nazi boss, just stack stamina... don't prepare yourself for any other fights, just stack stamina... forget dodge and expertise, stack stamina... that's about as bad as your analogy.

    Anyway, as I said, I'm going to give it a shot (mainly to prove to myself that it's ridiculous as I'm being told nonstop by people I'm talking to about it)... of course, as gear comes and I have dodge, hit, expertise covered and not having to gem for it (like casters who gem for SP until they have what they need, etc), I'm sure I will go back to stacking stam but I'll have the other stats needed as well.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  14. #34
    That isn't true... not everyone stacks stam in liu of other stats needed to tank. Period.
    Actually, this should be really easy for you to prove. Find an armory of a tank who has successfully finished ToGC 25 (Maybe even ToGC 10 would suffice?) that did NOT gem and enchant primarily stamina.

  15. #35
    now i have like
    33137 hp
    7720 armor
    29.82 dodge
    176 hit
    21 exp
    1889 ap
    24.57% crit

    isit good enough ?
    Could you give us your stats in bear form? It'd be very helpful. =)

  16. #36
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    now in bear form i have like
    42867 hp
    29219 armor +7k ( if the black heart props )
    39.82 dodge
    176 hit
    21 exp
    5994ap
    42.49% crit

  17. #37
    Lot of great changes there so far.

    I'd still get Infected Wounds and Feral Aggression unless you are ABSOLUTELY SURE someone else is applying them. (And even then I'd get them, but that's just my personal preference.)

    I'd still consider picking up the Idol of the Corrupter over the Mutilation one. The agility is going to be superior to the dodge by a good bit.

    That defense gem in the gloves still needs to go. You're looking at another 240hp if you put a 30 sta gem in there.

    I'd make my next priority the T9 helm for the expertise boost and maybe the T9 chest for the 4 piece bonus, which I like...not everyone seems to, but eh. My opinion.

    The Relentless legs...well, they're powerful just on virtue of their OP item level (251, lol) so why not hold onto em for now, eh? =)

  18. #38
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    running out of badges

  19. #39
    It's ok..you really should be just fine for ToGC 10...(maybe entry-level 25?) now. Go get at it!

  20. #40
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    just hope that i wont get wack by algaron ><

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