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Thread: A druid tank needs help

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    A druid tank needs help

    this is my armory :
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    incase if u have problem accessing the website here is my stat :
    HP: 30557
    Armor: 7893
    Defense: 432
    Dodge: 31.53%
    Damage: 1299 - 1695
    Speed: 3.34
    Power1866
    Hit Rating: 172
    Crit Chance: 23.83%
    Expertise: 26

    I am currently experiencing difficulties on tanking in heroic TOC 10 or 25 man as well as algaron 10 man. I donno how it happens but I keep on dying…. , feel free to leave your comment (spec/gem/ench /etc).

    sry about the double posting in another section. :P

  2. #2
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    I can't see the armory with that link. Looks like the armory is down.

    That being said - 30k health in caster form seems a bit low. 8k armor also seems a bit low. I'd bet that you aren't gemmed for stamina as much, have poor enchants, went for a lot of socket bonuses, and probably aren't wearing a lot of armor gear.

  3. #3
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    Heh. Okay, looking at the armory I can see I was almost entirely right. Yay for clairvoyance!

    On gear:
    Shoulders can use the gladiatior shoulder enchant and 30 stam instead of getting the socket bonus with crit/stam.
    Chest should be +10 stam and get a +30 stam gem in it.
    Try to get Bracers of Swift Death made.
    Gloves can go with 30 stam instead of a def/stam gem.
    Get a death-warmed belt made.
    Legs are basically fine, though consider putting stam in them as well.
    Consider picking up Glyph of Indomitability and/or using Heart of Iron or Black Heart.
    Archon Glaive should likely have stamina instead.
    You should be using idol of the corrupter instead of idol of mutilation.

    Between most of these changes you should gain about 150 stamina, which is close to 2500 health.

    On your spec: you don't have feral aggression or infected wounds. You can know better than I - are you sure that the 20% melee attack slow and the improved demo shout/roar are being put up? If they're not (like they often aren't in 10 man) that's a big deal. I can't stress this enough. This is especially true for Algalon; you need to have the damage reduction, far more than you need threat.

  4. #4
    Avoid stam stacking until you get the rest of your stats where they need to be (stam stacking without the right stats elsewhere means more work for the healer and the same end result). Increase your dodge, hit, and expertise... you have some nice gear though.

    As for your spec, nothing really there that you could do to keep you from "dying"... not real sure why you chose to not include feral aggression or infected wounds... not being critical, just asking if there was a reason... I'm always open to making changes to improve.

    Sorry I wasn't much help.. what little advice I was able to lend, I did so based on experience. Surely some uber bear tank will come along and teach us all!
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  5. #5
    actually, I think your dodge is fine considering DR from that point... heh.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  6. #6
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    Ignore everything Atheia just said.

    You're dying a lot. One very big reason you're dying a lot is because you are fairly low in terms of stamina, especially for a druid tank. You don't need hit or expertise to not die a lot. Dodge isn't going to help you nearly that much. What you need is stamina, and armor.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Heh. Okay, looking at the armory I can see I was almost entirely right. Yay for clairvoyance!

    On gear:
    Shoulders can use the gladiatior shoulder enchant and 30 stam instead of getting the socket bonus with crit/stam.
    Chest should be +10 stam and get a +30 stam gem in it.
    Try to get Bracers of Swift Death made.
    Gloves can go with 30 stam instead of a def/stam gem.
    Get a death-warmed belt made.
    Legs are basically fine, though consider putting stam in them as well.
    Consider picking up Glyph of Indomitability and/or using Heart of Iron or Black Heart.
    Archon Glaive should likely have stamina instead.
    You should be using idol of the corrupter instead of idol of mutilation.

    Between most of these changes you should gain about 150 stamina, which is close to 2500 health.

    On your spec: you don't have feral aggression or infected wounds. You can know better than I - are you sure that the 20% melee attack slow and the improved demo shout/roar are being put up? If they're not (like they often aren't in 10 man) that's a big deal. I can't stress this enough. This is especially true for Algalon; you need to have the damage reduction, far more than you need threat.
    hehe, thanks... taking some of these tips for myself, as well
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Ignore everything Atheia just said.
    And so brings our uber tank to learn us something. Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable. The hit and the expertise just helps in other areas as well (doesn't save you but creates a better tank). I tank these just fine and I don't stack stamina to impress people with high HP (gotta have a certain amount, sure, but my stats are fairly solid all the way around because I ignore the "stam stacking" obsession - of course, I don't tank places I'm not ready to tank). And yes, I have more to do. Haven't quite gotten to the Uber level of Felhoof but then again, haven't been playing near as long.. one day, oh yes, one day!
    Last edited by Atheia; 10-23-2009 at 01:03 PM.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheia View Post
    And so brings our uber tank to learn us something. Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable.
    It does give the healer more time to heal you, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheia View Post
    The hit and the expertise just helps in other areas as well (doesn't save you but creates a better tank).
    This is true as far as threat generation goes. No hit/exp and your threat goes down the toilet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheia View Post
    I tank these just fine and I don't stack stamina to impress people with high HP (gotta have a certain amount, sure, but my stats are fairly solid all the way around because I ignore the "stam stacking" obsession - of course, I don't tank places I'm not ready to tank).
    Several of the higher-end encounters require stam stacking regardless of what class of tank you have. Excluding those specific encounters, it isn't necessary. But because people see tanks running around stam-stacked, it has caused bias towards all tanks, regardless of context, concerning their stamina (i.e. the notion that a war or pally tank with less than 30k health can't do heroics). You may find as you progress, that when you get to a certain point, you just don't have enough health to "take it in the face" unless you stam stack.

  10. #10
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    I would venture Infected Wounds and Feral Aggression would make more of a difference then any other suggestion made so far.

    Which brings up the point, are you even using Demo Roar in the first place?

    Infected Wounds decreases the rate at which you take damage by 20%. This adds up over the long run, and make make the difference between your healers being able to keep up or not.

    Demo Roar effectiveness varies Boss to Boss, but you can expect at least 10% without Feral Aggression and 15% or so with it. That's extra mitigation which would take you thousands of armor to equal in gear.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    Several of the higher-end encounters require stam stacking regardless of what class of tank you have. Excluding those specific encounters, it isn't necessary. But because people see tanks running around stam-stacked, it has caused bias towards all tanks, regardless of context, concerning their stamina (i.e. the notion that a war or pally tank with less than 30k health can't do heroics). You may find as you progress, that when you get to a certain point, you just don't have enough health to "take it in the face" unless you stam stack.
    I agree totally, but as you pointed out, the "higher-end encounters" would also lend to one thinking that the tank was prepared to go in such places and therefore already be well rounded.. not always the case. As gear progresses (i.e. Felhoof's gear which is quite sweet) you can afford to start stacking stamina because you have the rest of the stats squared away, for the most part. Stacking stamina without dodge and expertise is pointless, imho. And I like the suggestion made about Demo Roar by Fenier... there are far more issues to consider rather than how much stam you can slot. That's just me and I suppose that's why I'm told often that I'm much easier to "keep up" than most druid tanks (of course, I've been told I'm squishy too... 6 in one hand, a half a dozen in the other).
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  12. #12
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    Avoidance is nowhere near as good as it was in BC due to diminishing returns. The reality is that if you are MT'ing ulduar HM/ totgc, your healers are not canceling most of their heals regardless of how much you dodge. So stacking dodge instead of stam turns into overheal in a lot of situations instead of having a larger buffer for the healers to work with. This is why EH has been king except for later tiers of BC content (cue sunwell raidiance and avoidance DR's). If your healers are mainly reactively healing you then this is another story. Stack agility until the cows come home.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheia View Post
    I agree totally, but as you pointed out, the "higher-end encounters" would also lend to one thinking that the tank was prepared to go in such places and therefore already be well rounded.
    The OP is asking for help with such encounters, though, which is why I pointed it out. Algalon and ToGC10/25 are both places where stam stacking is necessary, due to rapid, high-damage bosses. In that context, the advice to stack more stam makes sense.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    The OP is asking for help with such encounters, though, which is why I pointed it out. Algalon and ToGC10/25 are both places where stam stacking is necessary, due to rapid, high-damage bosses. In that context, the advice to stack more stam makes sense.
    I suppose.. he did however list all of his stats and linked to his armory to look at his talents therefore showing more needed to be done rather than stacking stam... but whatever, I don't stack stamina and do just fine. I was merely giving my opinion on the matter. Everyone has their own "sure fire way" to do it... so, take what you like and leave the rest.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

  15. #15
    Stacking stamina without dodge and expertise is pointless, imho.
    It's a pretty huge fallacy, the one where people think that high HP = squishy or something.

    And when it comes to druids, bears scale so sickeningly well with stamina that there's almost no reason to NOT get a lot of it. You'll get plenty of armor (More than any plate wearer) and dodge (Remember, we stack agility just by default since we're wearing rogue leather.) just along the way.

    And so brings our uber tank to learn us something. Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable.
    They're both different sides of the same coin. Either armor or HP just "prolongs the inevitable". That's not an argument for or against either of them.

    The current raid situation pretty much demands stamina, much moreso than armor most of the time - and again, this is especially true for bears and our ~1.6x stamina modifier.

    When I was MTing Naxx back in 2008, I had agility in almost every gem and enchant slot and it was cool. Things have changed, now if I try that I'd probably explode in ToGC.

    As for expertise...the question wasn't about threat, so it's reasonable that the topic was ignored in the initial replies.

    On your spec: you don't have feral aggression or infected wounds. You can know better than I - are you sure that the 20% melee attack slow and the improved demo shout/roar are being put up? If they're not (like they often aren't in 10 man) that's a big deal. I can't stress this enough. This is especially true for Algalon; you need to have the damage reduction, far more than you need threat.
    I have a personal rule about FA/IW...I ALWAYS get them no matter what now. I see the whole damage reduction/mitigation thing as part of my role and thus I only rely on myself to get them done. Sure, someone else might be able to, but what happens if they die or get lazy or something? Then my job just became a hell of a lot harder.

    If there were something really compelling to get in lieu of FA/IW, I'd consider it...but really, what are you missing out on to get them? Improved Mangle? Master Shapeshifter? Eh. =D

  16. #16
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    Okay, Atheia, let me see if I understand this right.

    The problem is that in hard mode content (Algalon, ToGC10 and 25) the tank in question is dying a lot.

    Your solution is to have them stack hit and expertise. Is that right? And then have them stack some more dodge?

    Did you even look at this person's armory? You do realize that they're quoting their caster stats, right?

    As gear progresses (i.e. Felhoof's gear which is quite sweet) you can afford to start stacking stamina because you have the rest of the stats squared away, for the most part.
    No. This is exactly the wrong advice, the wrong way to think about it, and is almost 100% completely wrong.

    You don't stack stamina once you've got reasonable amounts of dodge and hit/expertise. You stack stamina UNTIL you have reasonable amounts of health for the encounter, and then you can do whatever makes the most sense. More stamina might be good - but so might be avoidance, threat, whatever. The point being that until you reach the level of reasonable survivability, stacking anything other than stamina (or whatever will help you survive that specific encounter) is a laughable statement.

    Stacking stamina without dodge and expertise is pointless, imho. And I like the suggestion made about Demo Roar by Fenier... there are far more issues to consider rather than how much stam you can slot.
    Which is why my very first statement after I saw his armory was whether or not imp demo roar and IW were being put on the boss, and if not - to get them.

  17. #17
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    Also, Atheia - now I'm curious. What encounters are you doing 'fine' in, and what kind of stats are you sporting? If you're not stacking stamina via trinkets, gemming, etc - how are you handling things like Gormok's impale/melee/impale tick damage on 25 man hard mode?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheia View Post
    I suppose.. he did however list all of his stats and linked to his armory to look at his talents therefore showing more needed to be done rather than stacking stam...
    This touches on the whole EH (Effective Health) vs. Avoidance topic, of which there are several threads with back-and-forth on it.

    The upshot is: for the high-damage boss fights, EH is better because it is always there; avoidance is random and during a 5-10 minute boss fight, you'll get a bad avoidance string (more than one, really), get hit a bunch of times in a row, and if the EH isn't there, you die.

    It isn't balanced; it skews your stats towards being hit more (but being able to take those hits), but sadly, is necessary. Many tanks who do it lament the necessity of it. But they can't get through those fights reliably without doing it.

  19. #19
    Many tanks who do it lament the necessity of it.
    Yep.

    I don't necessarily LIKE being a 57,500hp meatshield in raids, but I kinda have to be for some fights. And half the time I feel like I could use even more. ><

    I like my agility, I really do...but well, the raw EH "requirements" are way higher now than in Naxx.

  20. #20
    Well, I have to say thanks to Bovinity to making more sense of the reasons WHY rather than shrugging off a post that was at odds like Felhoof. I appreciate it. Although I'll continue to gear the way I am and have no trouble doing the content I'm doing without stam stacking, I will, however, look at the possibility of tossing a stamina gem with all that in mind.

    As I said, I'm still learning as well or I wouldn't be spending time in these forums... my posts are merely based on experience I've had (and thus far, it's worked for me)... goodness knows how many times I've changed this and that (Thanks, btw, to Darksend) to improve... I'm not above more improvement if it's presented in a way that explains the faults rather than the arrogance of "You're just wrong" when I know, because I do this, I'm not.
    I'm a bear tank and you're just jealous!

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