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Thread: (3.2) State of the Death Knight - Current Specs/Styles

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4u2nv View Post
    The question i have and its been plauging me for weeks and i dont upgrade with triumph gear is bc i lose so much hit. Right now im at 4.36% hit and 7.4% expertise and i cant stomach the fact i have so little hit and i could lose much more from gear upgrades. Now i tank in Blood spec and have DW frost for boredem or heroics. Please someone share some insight into this. I have searched many other better geared tanks and no one has hit gems, etc and some have more hit then i and some have less.

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    Wrong place for this, there's a forum.

    Short answer? I don't know, I held off a lot on upgrading to t9 gear myself to maintain levels of hit that wouldn't make me cry. I now have my t9 4 pc bonus and I'm hit-capped.

    It's not a matter of the level of the gear, it's a matter of finding the pieces with hit that suit your set best and grabbing them up. Depending on your access and repetition on raids that may not be easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthas View Post
    First off you might ask why Rune of Swordshattering on my weapon? I don't need the defense as much since I'm capped already. I use that Rune because of the parry it provides. My logic is this: More parry means more chance for me to avoid attacks. This leads to Rune Strike procing more often therefore building more single target threat OR Scent of Blood procing leading to more Runic Power = more FS assuming Rime is up. Is this the wrong way to build single target threat? Or is my logic wrong and I should go back to Rune of Stone Skin Gargoyle?
    Your logic is fine. But to be clear, here is the breakdown between the two runes:
    SSG = 3% total avoidance (1% miss, dodge, parry), +2% stam
    SS = 4% parry

    A lot of tanks will take SSG for the health bump, not because they particularly need the defense (I do because I'm a Blood tank and I really do like more health). You are right though, in that SS will give you twice as much RS/SoB triggering chances, and for that it is a fine choice. For posterity, note that neither rune will be affected by, or affect your diminishing returns on avoidance stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthas View Post
    I've read that their is no solid single target threat rotation, but this is what I've been using IT PS BS BS OB DUMP OB. If Rime is up and I have RP use FS. If KM is up, wait for Rime and hit HB. I had in mind to try out DnD, HB, BS, FS regardless if Rime is up or not. HoW after BS if I don't have enough runic power for at least one FS.
    For single target threat as Frost, you described the best method I've seen, and it works quite well. Two diseases, OB each FU pair, HB when Rime procs, FS to fill rune blackouts, and BS Blood runes for an extra FU pair every other set. I would *not* advocate using DnD for general threat, especially not single target threat as a Frost tank. It's worth using strategically for pick-ups, pull tactics, etc, but I think it's a waste on a single target where you could use your other moves more smoothly.

    If you're having trouble with threat, by looking at your gear (which I notice is setup to stamina at any expense), I'd wager that you are just pitting your threat against better geared dps, am I right?

    By your equipment I'd guess you'd put out fine threat against people up through Ulduar gear, but if you're going against people in healthy amounts of t9 you may have to work hard for it, and your weapon will contribute to that a fair amount (219 ilvl, 212 dps will hurt your OB, RS, BS, and FS a bit compared to higher geared dpsers). Your avoidance is decent, as is your health.

    What level of content are you tanking, and who are you tanking for? I think your methodology sounds just fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    For single target threat as Frost, you described the best method I've seen, and it works quite well. Two diseases, OB each FU pair, HB when Rime procs, FS to fill rune blackouts, and BS Blood runes for an extra FU pair every other set. I would *not* advocate using DnD for general threat, especially not single target threat as a Frost tank. It's worth using strategically for pick-ups, pull tactics, etc, but I think it's a waste on a single target where you could use your other moves more smoothly.
    In that case I will stick to that rotation until it becomes priority and go from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    If you're having trouble with threat, by looking at your gear (which I notice is setup to stamina at any expense), I'd wager that you are just pitting your threat against better geared dps, am I right?

    By your equipment I'd guess you'd put out fine threat against people up through Ulduar gear, but if you're going against people in healthy amounts of t9 you may have to work hard for it, and your weapon will contribute to that a fair amount (219 ilvl, 212 dps will hurt your OB, RS, BS, and FS a bit compared to higher geared dpsers). Your avoidance is decent, as is your health.

    What level of content are you tanking, and who are you tanking for? I think your methodology sounds just fine.
    Quite right. Full Triumph and 245 weapons, mostly casters that take aggro after a string of big crits. If Heroism is popped very early and I don't have enough threat they will steal it. Usually if an early Heroism is inc then I will ERW and spam Oblit with diseases up and sometimes even then I'm not able to keep aggro. I'm able to MT 10ToC with no issues, but I've not had to chance to MT 25ToC. I've MT 25 Onyx, I was on Sarth and I have healthy aggro, I suppose only because I was given a few seconds to get aggro and pull her back before everyone goes nuts. I was also on the welphs and AoE threat for Frost is cake so I had no issues there.

    The reason I'm curious about the single target threat is for example on a heroic boss, why is it that if DPS pop's their CD's right off the start they steal aggro very easily and even if I pop ERW and start spamming OB they still take aggro?

    Also you mentioned
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    (which I notice is setup to stamina at any expense)
    .

    Am I not suppose to gem straight for stamina? Am I loosing out by going for straight Stamina or should I be looking into socket bonuses?

    As for my gear, I really should invest in a couple of triumph pieces which are pretty easy to get. The only problem is the one you mentioned: the weapon since Justicebringer drops once every month . I do have Stormrune Edge that I use for my DPS set, would that help with gaining more threat then Marrowstike ? I would loose out on the socket Stamina but I would give that up for more threat easily.

  4. #124
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    "Supposed" is a sticky word for me. I don't think you'll suffer really from all stamina, but I'm a stickler for making socket bonuses as a tank. Since almost all of your bonuses are stamina, you'd lose a little stam and gain a disproportionately larger value of something else. For example, I trade some stam for a lot of Agi (Shifting purples for red slots, gets you AP, Armor, Dodge, and Crit, all in small measure but the cumulative value is nice for threat and survival) and Hit (Vivid greens for my one yellow slot, so long as you aren't hit capped it's nice for threat).

    You won't get better health value out of the sockets if you drop the pure stam gems from some of them to meet bonuses, but you will get a better net value out of it. That is, unless you prescribe to the school of thought that health > everything.

    The Stormrune Edge would absolutely give you more threat than Marrowstrike. Actually, I don't know why you aren't using it already? o.O It's higher dps, higher stats, it just doesn't have the socket which makes for a very small difference (and in terms of threat, the stats never outweigh the dps value).


    As for dps playing stupidly with their threat, I can't make excuses. I do have a policy of "pulling aggro as a dpser is your responsibility, not mine." I do what I can for threat, I work for it. If you pull off me, it's because you were foolish with your threat and threat-drop abilities, and I am happy to let you tank it to remember why it is a bad idea to pull off of the tank. It is a liberty I have though, to say that, no one can actually really out-gear me. That said, I still feel threat is in the dpsers hands. It is only vital that they do their breakneck dps in hard modes, if they're worrying too much about numbers in an instance, then they have their priorities out of whack.


    "If a healer dies, it is the tank's fault.
    If the tank dies, it is the healer's fault.
    If the dps die, it is their own damn fault."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #125
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    I never considered the net value of trying to get the socket bonuses, now it is something I will certainly look into. I would gain more dodge or parry or hit depending on the socket. I would much rather have a little bit less health but be able to dodge and parry incoming attacks then have a shit ton of health and take massive damage making it harder for my healers.

    As for me not using Stormrune Edge it's mostly because I'm not sure if I really want to stick to DPS or tanking. I'm really loving tanking so far so I will put my trophies, badges, and gold towards that. After DPSing for three or so patches.. it's getting really boring. Simple modifications to a tree or rotation for the most part will fix anything wrong with DPS. What I've come to appreicate so much about tanking is the understanding it forces me to have of an encounter. Sure you need to understand the fight from a DPS point of view, but compared to a tanking point of view it's very tunnel vision. With tanking I get a better sense of the over all raid, a bird's eye view, much better for leading and figuring out solutions to particular encounters.

    As for your DPS explaination about them pulling, makes me feel good. Mostly because now I am confident that I'm doing my part on threat gaining and it's up to DPS to do their part. The moment that I hit IT in a bloody heroic they pop cd's and go nuts. I don't see how it's possible to hold threat against that, but from what you said it's all good if I don't hold threat if they go nuts within 2seconds of a heroic fight.

    I will talk to my guild about MTing 25ToC and will certainly get back to you guys about how my single target threat gen is there.

  6. #126
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    Ah, so you have the sword set up to dps.

    Rune switching can be pretty easy, since it's free, and ToC is in close proximity to the Runeforges in the Shadowvault. =) That's all it takes to make a dps weapon a tank weapon for us. Of course, you can always tank with Fallen Crusader, it's good threat, albeit weak survival.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #127
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    Am I glad to read the last few postings here. Just been called an incompetent tank in VoA 25 coz I couldn't hold threat against hardcore dps. Finally 3rd time when they held back a bit I had no problems. But I sure don't hope I'll have this problem from now on.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    I can relate to the amount of misinformation that tends to float around on servers. I ran into another DW'ing frost DK tank in a 25-man VoA pug the other day. Since I am a big fan of the style, I whispered him "props on DW'ing," and he began asking me questions. I discovered that the guy thought that 0 parries occur at 26 expertise, so he "had to get to 26 expertise or else he'll get parried and insta-gibbed." the guy literally thought that if you get parried as a tank, it's like an super DragonBall-Z instant death attack. He had no idea how the parry-haste rule worked, and couldn't comprehend the fact that his belief on the matter was self-evidently wrong, since he was tanking in a 25-man raid with only 24 expertise and mysteriously hadn't died yet...
    I can also relate. I was told point-blank in a raid by another DK we pugged in that I was stupid for using a frost 2-h spec. If that's the case, then why are there 2 of them posted here???

    Anyway, I'm looking at this spec to fit in Acclimation:

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Does that seem to make sense?
    Last edited by saber_pv; 11-19-2009 at 01:45 PM.

  9. #129
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    Looks like it makes sense to me, but I'd recommend the glyph of howling blast with an epidemic-less spec. It works wonders for me.

  10. #130
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    Satorri, your my hero. Just like Simon is to Malcolm Renolds
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  11. #131
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    I tanked 10ToC last night and my threat gen was fine. Their was one moment on Anub where a feral druid almost pulled off of me, so I had to pay attention. I got Fordragon Blade last night so that helped with my tanking upgrade.

    Only problem I had were applying diseases. I noticed when I tried to apply my diseases I missed quite often. Is this a hit rating issue? Earlier hit rating was being discussed, but their was not solid conclusion. Is my hit too low? Is that why I'm missing when I try to apply diseases?

  12. #132
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    Plague Strike uses the melee miss chance, so even with your hit you won't miss much, but Icy Touch uses the spell cap, so there's a pretty sizable miss chance normally everywhere.

    Do you *need* more hit chance? No, but what you're describing is a reason I usually try to hang out near the hit and expertise soft caps (8% melee hit and 26 expertise).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #133
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    What sat said. Virulence takes care of some of that %hit for icy touch and death coil, and hit rating benefits spell hit more than mellee hit, so you'll probably be looking at 4% or so miss chance for icy touch if you're hit capped and virulent.

  14. #134
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    I'm using Glyph of Howling Blast with Epidemic. I'm also 3/3 in Subversion with Sigil of Awareness. It gives me a lot of time to wait on a Rime proc so that I don't use runes on Howling Blast. I figured it worked for DPSing, why not tanking?

  15. #135
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    The links to your characters weren't working, Rude. Would you mind posting the spec you use? I'm curious

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rude View Post
    I'm using Glyph of Howling Blast with Epidemic. I'm also 3/3 in Subversion with Sigil of Awareness. It gives me a lot of time to wait on a Rime proc so that I don't use runes on Howling Blast. I figured it worked for DPSing, why not tanking?
    Well, the statement I can nitpick by saying tanking has different needs than dpsing.

    Though the specific sentiment here isn't a bad one.

    Usually the catch with spec'ing for tanking is that you have to choose your balance of threat talents vs survival talents. And talents may have different value for tanks than they do for dpsers. Bladed Armor being a major example. As a dpser it is a moderate value, little better than anything else. As a tank with Toughness and in Frost Presence, Bladed Armor becomes one of the single largest talents for threat buffing that isn't a tree/style-specific spell.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #137
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    Gilthas,

    I saw your posts as I was perusing tank info. I have been playing the game a long time...to long in fact. I know people here dont know me to much i hardly ever post. With that said I used to be a warrior tank and Hav ehad my DK as main for a yr and have been tanking with mine. (In other words I know a little something about the game and class)

    I am a blood tank but also a frost dw dps. Now to the point

    I looked at your spec and I see some things that I think would help alot. The few changes I propse would help smooth rotations and increase threat alot. There is just no wway you need chill of grave and scent of blood. you will generate more threat and dps this way. Also I kept the glyphs you had but I think you could get away with changing oblit for disease for more aoe threat.

    Anyway my little suggestion....btw if you want to know who I am and waht my stuff looks like you can find it here. Little reminder I am offspec tank

    Frost tank build
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    Rathlord<---ME
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilithium View Post
    The links to your characters weren't working, Rude. Would you mind posting the spec you use? I'm curious
    I hadn't updated it since I changed servers and stopped playing my Warrior. So.. ever really. It should work now.

    I was running with a frost dps DK, so I dropped the entire line of icy stuff. I'm sure I will get berated for violating the holy trinity, but it's never posed much of a problem doing normal 10s. If I get into another guild and do anything more serious, I would look at moving points in Scent of Blood up to Blade Barrier. What drives me nuts is having to have 52 points in frost.

  19. #139
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    I am a DK tank currently struggling with mitigation and gemming. My guild has told me that I take too many damage spikes and it may be my gear or specs. I recently respeced from a blood spec I had been using for quite some time, but I am getting frustrated fast with what I need to do to improve this. I have read a lot of forums but they are just spinning my head in circles. Can anyone help me out.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    This is my armory with the 2 new specs I am trying out. I wasn't sure if maybe I should look into DW tanking, after getting some more expertise as well as 2 weapons. Also if I did, I wasn't sure what weapons to look in to. Any help with anything at all would be much appreciated. Thank you

  20. #140
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    I can't speak much outside of frost, since I leveled the DK after Threat of Thassarian and spent most of my time dual-wielding. 1H tank weapons are probably going to give you the most health, certainly more avoidance stats than dps weapons. I've spent a lot of time shuffling gear and gems around to hold 540 defense. You would be 7 defense rating short for that, which a 10DR/15Stam gem will take care of.

    The problem, at least for me, is changing gear. That 25 defense gives you a lot of padding when you get upgrades with less defense rating. That will change in 3.3, but right now it's something you should be aware of if you want to go that route. DW will give you another 1% avoidance, plus whatever you can get on the weapons. So what 1h choices you have is probably the deciding factor on the avoidance gain.

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