How do Warrior tanks feel about this trinket?
I'm using it now, but another Warrior tank in my guild is saying that I'm wrong for it, and that I should stack the Brewfest trinkets instead (both of which I have).
I already know that stacking the Brewfest trinkets isn't exactly the greatest unless the fight is 100% magic, but I'm curious to hear what Tankspot thinks of the one I bought with my Triumph emblems.
I found it great help on Beasts encounter. Gormok and Icehowl cannot hurt you if you stack up on armor. I think that common agreement is to reach 40K hp with balanced avoidance while keeping expertise in the mid between dodge and parry cap. Once I reached 30K armor 40K hp without sacrificing any other stat - I tanked heroic Gormok25 without problem.
So -
1) Get that trinket it's great on physical damage fights.
2) Don't be lazy - swap trinkets according to fights.
Mookey | GM of <RISE> Xavius [EU]
I do favor the trinket for such melee encounters, and unless a fight is more magical than physical, I won't use two Direbrew trinkets. Another tank in my guild, however, insists on using them all the time, stating that 'stamina is way more consistent'. It is, but he doesn't see how they aren't great trinkets for all fights.
theres a good article on this stuff over on tankingtips.com
Honestly it depends on where your gear levels are at. I calculated out my EHP from it (though unbuffed, buffed may be different) and actually heart of iron ended up being more EHP than the glyph. It really depends on your hps and your current armor.
The idea with EHP is that it is the completely unmitigated damage you would need to take to go from full to dead, effectively then the mitigators of armor could be converted into hps.
So... granted this is low values I'm just doing napkin math to prove a point.
Say you have 40khp and enough armor for 50% reduction, that means your EHP should be close to 80khp, so 40k EHP from the armor you have. Now say your armor stays the same at 50% but you increase your hps to 50khp, now the same amount of armor has 50k EHP. However if you stay at the same relative hit points but increase armor, there is an exponential curve (at I think it's 45k armor or 75% reduction) so the more armor you have, adding armor with the same amount of hit points slowly will decrease the amount of EHP you get from armor point for point, and the EHP gained from stam trinkets is more than the actual hit points because some of the damage you take will be mitigated by damage (IE if you were to take add 4k hit points it would take 8k damage to actually kill you at 50% reduction from armor)
At least... that is the only reason I can come up with as to why 1.7k armor calculates as less EHP for me than 163 stam. This is just kinda napkin math and me sort of tired late at night. I can find some people to give me buffs tomorrow night or something and buy the glyph and plug things into my calculator if you'd like and show you the numbers, but my unbuffed numbers showed Heart of Iron as more EHP than Glyph of Indominability.
[Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
See what i said in the other thread - it gives a tiny bit less EH but in the long run it will reduce the physical damage you take by ~4%.
I think when i did a quick work out of how good it was i used unbuffed values and it worked out as an equivalent of about 150 stam (with ~38k hp unbuffed). Of course, this is worth more if you have more health cause the bigger the health pool the more incoming damage there is to reduce in the calculation but even then it won't top the stamina on the highest stam trinket, BUT thats a signifcant amount of physical damage reduction + an amazing on-use that should not be ignored by going into the realms of EHP tunnel vision.
Love it. Naturally I use a stamina trinket for magic-damage fights, and a blocking or avoidance or threat trinket in heroics, but for everything else: love it.
It isn't just the armor, it's the click effect. Some tanks hate click effects, but I find them to be an incredibly useful addition to our cooldowns. 7.5% dodge (at my gear level, anyway) on demand, for 20 seconds, every 2 minutes.
The last of an on use or on equip effect with the Brewfest trinkets really leaves alot to be desired on most fights. In a purely magic damage encounter the Brewfest ones come out on top but probably still not by much. I personally still use the Black Heart over the Brewfest ones.
They are great when you encounter pug groups who expect the tank for their VoA to have 50k health all unbuffed (/sarcasm)
Yeh, it's another one of those gains that are actually more than they seem at first glance (like armor gains). For example, 7.5% doesn't sound particulary amazing, but if you are sitting at 62.5% dodge/parry/miss it means that means you have 37.5% chance to be hit (for examples sake we'll take the hit table as 100% and not 102.4%) - take 7.5% off that and you get 30% chance to be hit, this results in you taking 20% less hits than before you popped the trinket.Originally Posted by Athenodorus
From an EH point at my current gear level the Brewfest trinket offers slightly more EH than the Glyph of Indomitably but I think the one use of the Glyph of Indomitably makes its far more useful then the Brewfest trinket. An extra 6.5-12% dodge depending on your gear level to use on command on only a two minute cooldown will save you from dying far more than a few hundred EH.
That being said though I would rather have the Brewfest Trinket for a boss like Mimiron where its all magic damage, normal melee can't kill you and there is no burst damage, but for the majority of bosses I want the Glyph of Indomitability.
This information has all been very insightful, and it's good to get some backing on choosing the trinkets I do. I've got evidence now to show this other tank in my guild that sticking to his Brewfest-guns is a truly lackluster idea.
Don't discount the trinket solely because it's less EH; in addition to the on-use ability, it actually prevents damage, which can be more valuable than stamina when gauging things.
Seriously, why does everyone seem to ignore this when talking about EH? Surely preventing damage is better than just taking more if things are otherwise equivalent?
In any case, between the on-use, the mitigation, the EH and the interesting mechanics of certain fights such as Anub'arak, it's a great trinket. There's no reason not to get it eventually.
Well, the big reason - for my thinking, at least - is that the on-use effect is really quite a small amount of dodge, overall, and can't prevent things like Impale, Freezing Slash, etc.
Combine that with the fact that armor is often non-applicable in many situations that are dangerous to a tank (But, granted, better in some others) and that druids scale so sickeningly well off of stamina...well, it's hard to give up even a Brewfest stein for it in most fights. =/
Can't but can prevent "NEXT" hit right after impale/Freezing slash :P First ones are not killers
When you are stunned - when you take Freezing slash / Ferocious but, and (to certain extent) - Unbalancing strike, only things that can save you are miss gained from defense / health pool / armor, in this situations only miss and armor will reduce damage, armor will reduce it and miss will "add chance to avoid it" so armor in long term is very valuable stat.
Mookey | GM of <RISE> Xavius [EU]
Seriously? A small amount?
That 8-10% of dodge that you gain from the trinket is quite a lot if you remember that it's effective avoidance that counts.
This is how effective avoidance works.
The first 10% avoidance that you get gives you just that - 10% avoidance. Where you would normally take 10 hits, you now take 9.
The second 10% avoidance gives you a bit more - you go down from 9 hits taken to 8 hits taken, so it'd work out to about 11%.
This goes on and on, and that same 10% avoidance will get you more and more net results when compared to the situation before getting that 10%.
Since tanks at that level should be sitting at about 60% avoidance, you can easily double the avoidance gained from the trinket.
When used wisely, it can make some fights a lot easier on the healers, and that can save you. No guarantees, but your odds get better.
Most of the big tank killers I can recall are affected by armor, though having a big health pool is very nice indeed. Dunno how the scaling is for druids, but I'll take a usefull cooldown over the extra stamina the brewfest trinkets give when compared to the heart of iron of the royal seal of king llane.Combine that with the fact that armor is often non-applicable in many situations that are dangerous to a tank (But, granted, better in some others) and that druids scale so sickeningly well off of stamina...well, it's hard to give up even a Brewfest stein for it in most fights. =/
Well, impale is mitgated by armor and is mostly threatening when combined with a hit (dodgable, mitgated by armor). Freezing slash isnt dangerous on its own, the fact you get frozen means a hit then a slash are followed by a ~90% hit chance - most of the damage in this scenario is also physical. So, as you can see there are only minor non-mitgated components in both these scenarios and unless you are dying by around 500 HP overkill or less then the extra EHP is not worth the sacrifice for all the other benefits.
Obviously from a druid standpoint you probably get less from the on use but still, the argument for the trinket still stands pretty strong
Gormok's impale is mitigated by armour? i thought it was effectively a bleed effect and such ignored armour
I believe the initial hit is physical.
The initial hit, which is the main thing which will kill you.
Completely unbuffed I get about 6.5% from it. Raid buffed I'm sure it'll be even less. =(That 8-10% of dodge that you gain from the trinket is quite a lot if you remember that it's effective avoidance that counts.
It's about 1.6x stamina modifier for druids, if I recall correctly. So yeah, we just get truckloads of HP from it.Most of the big tank killers I can recall are affected by armor, though having a big health pool is very nice indeed. Dunno how the scaling is for druids, but I'll take a usefull cooldown over the extra stamina the brewfest trinkets give when compared to the heart of iron of the royal seal of king llane.
I spoke too broadly when I talked about armor and tank killers, though. I didn't mean for it to sound like it was useless in that regard. Just that - for example - on an Impale -> Melee -> DoT Tick situation the armor is only "helping" on two out of three.
I also sort of mixed up my "armor" and "avoidance" thoughts in my head. ><
Last edited by Bovinity; 10-23-2009 at 02:23 PM.
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