Thanks for the input =D Something else I would like to find out is, how much haste are you guys running at? I have been doing some research and have seen some Disc priest gemming for haste. Mainly with the reckless ametrine. From gear alone I sit at almost 14% haste. My throughput is good, along with my regen. Should I switch some gems around to up my haste?
Ive tried many setups, and i defenately feel most powerful with 20-21% of haste (somewhere at 600-700hr). with that much haste BT isnt necessity but still a nice buff. Sometimes you just have to spam heal MT and then ~10%haste just isnt enough.
I do NOT gem for haste.
Yesterday I took a disc priest in my guild, I always had my doubts about disc in pve. I always saw better healing output from holy. Now you'll probably say "Yeah but healing meters don't count the shield absorbs".
Anyways I just watched this video and it seems like it might be a viable build in raids,
The disc priest I just took in told me he gemmed int gems because that were the gems to gem as disc right now, however you say it's spellpower.
More info about this please Why(not) take int gems?
Int gems are considered a mana regen stat, since you can gain powerful mana returns from Replenishment, Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope. It also has the side benefit of increasing spell crit by a small amount. However, disc priests, especially tank healer disc priests, generally don't have mana problems because of Rapture. Spellpower is a throughput stat, and the only one of which that affects disc priests main ability, Power Word: Shield. Since most disc priest do not have mana problems they go for throughput, and spellpower is the best throughput stat overall for them.
Originally Posted by tghmember
Now, if your disc priest is having mana issues because he is bubble-spam raid healing, then it would be appropriate to gem for int, but generally this is done through hybrid gems, such as the Luminous Ametrine.
on the haste discussion, I shoot for 3-400 haste, but end up around 500 because its just on sooooo much of my gear....borrowed time is not a nice buff, it is an essential one that should be up all the time....if you're not casting shields often enough to have borrowed time up all the time, roll a different class of heals because you're not doing disc healing...if you run 700 haste, go holy...your throughput and performance will be much much better....if you're disc, shields, penance, and then flash of light is ur go-to heal (renew is nice to keep up, too)...because of this, diminishing returns begins around 300 haste rating, so while more doesn't hurt you, it isn't going to help you nearly as much as Spellpower for overall throughput...I've seen and tried some greater heal specs to try to take greater advantage of haste and BT, but frankly, they always fail.....and they fail even harder with the constant mobility issues in 70-80% of the fights in ICC10/25. Seriously...if you're running 7-800 haste, go holy...its awesome at that point....
Think you missed my point. 3-400haste is defenately all you need for fights like 25man blood-queen... but when you need to spam heal MT and really get all out from your T10 set bonuses, you will need more haste than that, and wasting GCD on random raid member then just to get BT is plain fail, really.
I take it you never tank heal. Hint - you can only cast PW:S on the same person every 15 seconds. If you're healing a single tank, and I mean spam healing them through tough damage, wasting a global to bubble someone else just to get that 40% haste is incredibly inefficient. You seem to imply that every single disc priest should be bubble spamming and that we are useless as tank heals, which I scoff at.
Originally Posted by Goomba
Really, you started off with a valid point (you don't need much haste to be an efficient bubble-spammer) and then took it off into Illogicalville (if you have more than 400 haste as Disc, you fail and need to reroll - seriously, WTH?)
Even the "valid point" was wrong since you need hardly any haste (151? Can't remember, can't be bothered to check. 4.6% haste rating from gear or abouts) to be capped as a bubble spammer. 300-400 haste is definitely way over the cap for bubble spam and a wasted stat at that point. Not that there is any super amazing alternative to stacking haste as a bubble spammer, but... still not amazingly beneficial.
Originally Posted by Harmacy
T10 set bonii are not worth the gear their printed on for the most part, 4 set is so so but if you need to penance more often then not it probably means your guild is running a weak healer combination...
Originally Posted by Simnalier
Shielding another player with low health is bad play right? even when I did tank heal as disc there was still time to shield another player for the most part, not that I did it for BT but still...
Sure you can MT heal but mine and many others opinions is that disc functions better as an emergency healer on tanks and a pre-shield machine. We simply can't compare to holy paladins.
I think by now goomba and the rest of the priest community knows how PW:S works and functions, Disc isn't always for tank healing. I will agree bubbling someone for BT is a waste but shielding someone so they dont die isn't. You're welcome to keep your opinions but in reality holy paladins fill the tank healer void much better and even shamans and druids can keep up with support MT healing. Not one of those classes brings raid mitigation at the level disc does. All in all its a choice some view disc as tank healers still and some don't. Its as futile as debating flash heal vs renew for the holy filler.
Originally Posted by Harmacy
Everyones allowed a bit of illogical statements hardly something to hold against someone, next. No really bubble spam is more than just bubble spam, disc gear tends to have too much haste on it anyway so the point is moot you end up with over 500 without even trying half the time as he himself said and more to the point his argument was primarily aimed at priests messing with haste so they can use greater heal (which does indeed have issues as its not a great alternative spell).
Less flamming it will do you good, context and aim are important items to consider and while I realise a large portion of disc priests are forced to heal tanks quite alot of us have broken away from this due to how powerful shields are and a few who don't care so much about best useage stuck in their mundane roles. In all honestly I can encourage you to continue doing what you enjoy as I no longer play.
While right haste does still benefit disc, a disc priest who doesn't utilise other tools like PoM, flash heal and Prayer of healing(the main benefitter from haste) is pretty bad. Haste will at times affect these spells so it becomes useful however it is not the most effective statistic. Disc raid healing is more than just spam shield so many holy priests don't realise this and then can not do the role.
Originally Posted by Liliyah
Last edited by Nicki; 03-02-2010 at 07:56 AM.
If anyone was flaming, it was the guy who suggested that any Discie with over 300 haste should reroll.
Originally Posted by Nicki
"Everyone is allowed an illogical statement once in a while"
OK, and I am allowed to call them out on it.
Really, what exactly does he suggest we aim for instead of crit/haste gear. Spirit? MP5? Dodge?
Crit/haste is, once you have the mana pool to sustain yourself over long fights, the best setup because even if you don't use either stat for bubble spam, they are extremely useful for your other heals. Especially if you are assigned to tank healing which, no matter how often you are assigned to bubbling raid, will happen sometimes.
Last edited by Harmacy; 03-02-2010 at 08:45 AM.
I'd like to point out that disc priests and holy paladins of equal gear/skill have nearly identical eHPS on a single target. What makes holy paladins truly superior tank healers is their ability to have that eHPS over two targets simultaneously.
Would be better if you posted maths for that, I don't play so I only did paper math and it was with rough estimations which still ended up in a 1k deficit. I've never heard anything of the sort (more to the point Holy Light on its own is far more stable than priest heals) though it is pointless as taking a paladin basicly nets you 2 healers not 1.
Originally Posted by Spiritus
What im saying is theres no point getting in a tiff over something someone said, we all do it though. What should you aim for? Most likely spell power but umm happiness??
Its from looking at my own WoLs. I play with a holy paladin that I've worked with for years, and I know he is equally geared and skilled. We are often within 1% of each other on %healing done on a specific tank.
Originally Posted by Nicki
Its difficult to napkin math because a shield/aegis is always 100% eHPS. Now, there is no question that a Holy paladin can pump out WAY more rawHPS [VDW proves that], but that really isn't a measure of eHPS, which is what is important for tank healing.
Of course, eHPS is relative to a specific instance of a specific encounter. Sometimes one will be better than another for w/e reason (extra fires, copious iceblocking/unchaining). Remember, just because a HL hits for 20k, doesn't mean the eHPS is 20k. An 8k shield, or a 4k aegis, however, is always 8k & 4k eHPS respectively [on a tank].
Fine but thats rather missleading information and doesnt paint a full picture. Just because you heal 'as much' and thats effective doesnt mean the paladin can't heal more given you aren't there (then again you cant exactly kill bosses with that method). eHPS as you put it is a very very poor method of comparing stats based so purely on who manages to heal whom when and where.
Originally Posted by Spiritus
I had thought you meant 'Effective' HPS like Effective health not Healing Done on %t (e.g. its not impossible for older content to have druids or priests rivalling tank healers due to being able to HoT tanks but replace the tank healer for something else and the loss is noticed or can be..), So I was confused but your explanation doesnt demerit my statements regarding holy paladins but it is a little confusing if im honest since holy paladins do monopoly healing on tanks just due to consistancy (cooldown based healing does us little favour not that its terrible but it isn't ideal).
Your contention is that rawHPS > eHPS. If that is the case, a disc priest will always lose because rawHPS does not calculate spell selection and timing, only what is the maximum number you can achieve on a target with a healthbar that is never full (like VDW). When my holy paladin friend is not there, I have greater eHPS on the tanks, just as if I am absent, his eHPS on tanks goes up. I would contend, given a single tank taking boss level damage, a holy paladin and a disc priest are equal in their capacity to keep a tank alive [i.e.-- equal single target eHPS]. It would be difficult to substantiate this because it would require two identical encounters where the incoming damage was identical, as well as identical incidental healing. I suppose you could come close to this by taking a few ranged DPS, a raid healer, & a tank [along with a disc priest and holy paladin] into Festergut and see what the logs show, with each taking turns solo healing the tank. This, I believe, would be as baseline as you could get.
What is clear, however, is that a holy paladin becomes superior in their ability to perform this role with two targets, which a disc priest could never hope to match.
All in all, its rather moot. I'd rather have holy paladin + disc priest over holy paladin x2 any day.
I totally agree with you about our role in raid, but when the time comes when tank is taking huge hits and you need to spam penance & FH (shield&PoM=CD ofc) on him for some time, do you really use your GCD to save random raid member and risk your tank to die? I know it rarely is the case but it can be and then its a "raidwipe-badplay". During those rare moments, both T10 set bonuses really rock, i mean ive had 6k ticks from 2set bonus and 6x in a row 4-set bonus proc (yea yea, its pure luck).
Originally Posted by Nicki
P.S trust your dedicated raid healers a bit
I am currently doing 25man and 10man ICC. We intend to run hard modes for the 10man. With our current healing situation we usually either have me (disc priest) or two disc priest including myself in our 25man raids. At the moment I get straight Intellect, and im wondering if should should change to SP, or stay the way i am. Maybe use some Hybrids. The healing assignments when it is just me in the raid, is im usually just bubbling the raid and some tank heals. If their are two disc priests i am usually healing the tanks. I havent had any mana issues either. Heres a link to my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...airne&cn=Pyrae
I would, first, start aiming for more crit+haste pieces. In the meantime, you should be able to change all your gems to SP (sans those to activate your meta). You'll enjoy the extra throughput. The only fight where this can get me into trouble is LK, where I throw on a Mp5 flask and my Spark.
Don't play any more but 1. Can't spam a cooldown, 2. Healing positions should never be decided on the fly. A healer walking into a fight blind and assuming one thing is asking for trouble and a raid doing that is asking for double some people know disc as a raid healer some as a tank, information is the best friend. Your example is moot if positions are assigned before hand and yes that would be illogical then again your statement isn't following the presumption that tank healing is catered for.
Originally Posted by Simnalier
During those rare moments shield block rocked too in TBC, then your tank got gimped by a double crushing blow(most likely his own fault but there were a few occassions...).
In my mind you don't always trust raid healers IF you can be of benefit without causing RISK. Anyone who's done algalon knows raid healers don't always heal enough in time...
1. Play the spec you feel comfortable with but suggest that your guild atleast has a disc priest
2. Fill the role you want to fill unless its beneficial to your raid group for you to do something else (healing is helping after all)
@Spiritus, My point is a paladin has much better sustained HPS the heals can be more consistant and constant with a fairly less limited system of CDs, and they can also pick up the pace when needed in a variety of forms, In terms of consistancy which is what true progress relies on. Paladins ace the lot of all healers because of the simple system. Surely you've encountered that blow where flash was just too slow and too small while penance was on CD. If not then I can only say youre better than 99% of WoW players probably. As a paladin tank healing was a doddle even before beacon was good (I healed as one so I can safely say ive had less oh s*** moments tank healing on it then on my priest and bare in mind I chose to raid on my priest in my last days of WoW, I find paladin healing boring...but I will proclaim its strengths).
lol....yeah I was flaming, btw...sry about that...I'm remember why I stopped reading forums like this
my point stands, tho....the unique thing we bring to the table is our shields...as nikki pointed out, mitigation is our most valuable factor...if all we want is throughput and with all the haste on gear these days, holy is a hell of a build
@single target healing discussion...my guild has several really good holy palys, so I often end up seam healing, tank healing on fights where that damage is high, raid healing on fights when the constant raid damage is the issue (festergut is fun to gradually move from raid healing to tank healing)...and with the haste I have, I have absolutely no problem keeping tanks up when I'm assigned to them solo....like I said, spellpower is much more useful for this once crit/haste (and int, duh) are at a certain level
as for MT healing and borrowed time, just shielding the tanks and myself on a rotation will keep the buff active, depending on the fight, of course
pls do the math on haste for yourself....diminishing returns kick in hard for every single spell we cast (other than greater heal) very quickly because we are such awesomely mobile fast-casting healers, especially with BT
and have fun and play the game however you want...I'm sure calling people you disagree with "illogical" must feel really good
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