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Thread: Tanking Officer needs HELP

  1. #1
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    Tanking Officer needs HELP

    Hello Everyone,

    I am the Officer in my guild in charge of tanking and tank development. I feel that I have a good overall understanding of the mechanics of Paladin tanking as that is my class and I have done the most research in this area.

    For example: To "end game content tank" as a Paladin I feel you must meet these requirements.
    You should meet or exceed all caps: D-Cap(540), Block Cap(102.4%), Expertise Cap (26), Hit Cap(263) and having met these criteria, you gear itemization should push you above 30k unbuffed HP.
    At which point you should gem/enchant for stam and str/bv in order to maximize threat gen and overall survivability aiming for 2900 bv which seems to be the "golden zone" for survivability and threat gen.
    I have been struggling to find concise information on the mechanics of tanking for non-paladin tanks. For example, the 102.4% total avoidance or "block cap" is really only feasible due to near 100% uptime of the Holy Shield Mechanic and using 969 tanking. How the hell does a warrior meet the 102.4% total avoidance goal without Holy Shield? And lets not get in to Druid/DK tanking and the lack of mitigation by not having a shield. Am I to understand that Druids and DK's can't ever reach the point that sword and board tanks do where they can never be hit, but will avoid or mitigate all incoming damage?

    What I don't want: To put you guys out by asking you to explain the mechanics of each class and the theorycrafting behind them. To be told "why don't you play the other classes noob and find out." To be laughed at for trying to be a better guild officer and help "noobs" coming up so that I can benefit the players and the guild.

    What I DO want: To be pointed in the right direction. Unfortunately in addition to a busy RL job in the medical profession, my time to play WoW is limited. Something that doesn't require eleventy billion hours of reading to distill the info would be truly helpful.

    Thanks for your time guys, sorry for cluttering your forums looking for info that is probably readily known and available to all of you.

    Creos Malkor

  2. #2
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    You by no means need to reach 102.4% at all unless you are tanking Anub'araks adds which is completely isolated situation. Also in ToC gear its impossible to get 263 hit because all of the pieces are completely devoid from hit, which I wouldn't worry about since there isn't any real threat intensive bosses in ToC. After you reach 540 defense and around 26 expertise the safest way to gear if you don't have much time is EH(Armor and Stamina) but the best way is to gear for the encounter, gearing for the encounter which I do will be more time consuming.

    Even after you have reached 26 expertise expertise will still provide better threat than BV and strength until you reach 57 expertise in which parries are completely removed. Unless you tanks are having threat problems I wouldn't really worry about it too much and focus on survival.

    Getting the Block cap can only be done by shield classes, warriors reach it by stacking all Block and Defense you should NEVER do this unless you are tanking Anub'Arak's adds by doing this you will completely gimp your survivability against any boss.

  3. #3
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    Honestly, trying to force the block cap isn't really necessary or a good idea. Warriors can't hit it easily and even if paladins can, some gear combinations are going to bring you below again until the next set of upgrades.

    Also, I think, at least with T9 gear in mind, expecting both high expertise and hit cap is a bit reaching.

    Really, your reqs should probably a be a bit more generalized:

    X amount of HP minimum (varies per tier of content you are on as well we what class)
    X amount of AC minimum (again varies with tier and class)
    spec'ed into certain necessary talents.
    X amount of average TPS minimum (varies with tier) ***varies wildly between specific fights****

    I wouldn't worry so much about minimum amounts of BV or avoidance. At some point you are micromanaging too much. The classes are different enough were lots of things will be different.

    Have the TPS cover your hit/expertise/str/bv threat requirements. But do some research. Don't just take what TPS you do. Watch your other tanks and your dps and try to see what is feasible. Even if a tank can do 9k TPS. If most of the dps except for like one person is around 5k dps, then aim for 6k as a minimum, but look and see what your other tanks can pull in the same situation. Also, try to not get hung up on a single TPS number. TPS varies from fight to fight significantly. Research time!

  4. #4
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    ^ what these guys said. From a warrior perspective on progression fights the biggest thing is going to be EHP, especially since warriors tend to have the lowest EHP pool right now it seems.

    If you have specific armories you can link me that you'd like advice for I'd be more than happy to take a gander. But really threat isn't an issue at the moment. In my EHP gear where I sack everything for stam/armor I'm currently at 35 expertise and 89 hit, and I have almost no problems with threat and our dps is doing 7-8kdps on average static pew pew situations.

    But ya, don't worry about reaching 102.4, it's only really viable for warriors tanking H-Anub'Arak adds.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  5. #5
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    This list of requirements is counterproductive more than helpful.

    If you want to help your tanks, tell them to get certain tanking specific addons, one to announce to the raid when a tank cooldown is up and when it finishes (tanktotals), one that shows debuffs on the people set as tanks (Vuhdo or Grid when configured to do so, etc), etc... Those will be more useful than a very strict list of (mostly unnecessary) requirements

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengel View Post
    This list of requirements is counterproductive more than helpful.

    If you want to help your tanks, tell them to get certain tanking specific addons, one to announce to the raid when a tank cooldown is up and when it finishes (tanktotals), one that shows debuffs on the people set as tanks (Vuhdo or Grid when configured to do so, etc), etc... Those will be more useful than a very strict list of (mostly unnecessary) requirements
    No... there are some very necessary requirements for some fights, mainly being able to take it to the face. However you are right that some addons can help. At least as far as the tank cooldown stuff goes you can do that with macros, no need for addons.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  7. #7
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    Okay, I think the overall spirit of my original post has gone awry. I'm with you on not having a super strict set of requirements. I am not afraid of doing research, i just have no idea where to start so that i can get this done in a reasonable amount of time. It has taken me years of playing a paladin only, reading, researching and testing to reach the level of understanding that I have of paladins. I have neither the experience or time to spend on learning and experimenting with three other classes I have never played.

    Essentially I need to get an idea of where to go to get an understanding of the three other non-paladin tanking mechanics. I need to find a source or sources to gain a moderate to high level understanding of druids, warriors and DKs (I have no alts, and have only played one class in raids)

    I need to gather a goodly amount of information, glean it all down so I can have a good overall amount of information without having to become a class expert on all the classes. This way when a druid or DK comes to me and asks, "should i be gearing for avoidance or stam right now?" i can have an answer other than talk to your class leader.

    If someone has a website like Maintankadin.com for druids, warriors or DKs, that would be helpful. Or, if you know of some guru who would be willing to share some knowledge to a guy who wants to learn, but has never played that class, that would be great too.

    I want to learn and I want to be a better Officer and resource for my guildies.

    Thanks again, Creos Malkor
    Last edited by abqmedic77; 10-18-2009 at 10:27 AM.

  8. #8
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    I'm willing to answer any warrior questions. I guess we don't know where to go other than "gem for stam, get lots of EHP" because with a few exceptions that's what fights demand at the moment. I'm at work today so I guess if you want a more private convo you can message me, otherwise catch me in game some time. Or if you have more specific questions you can post here. But for the most part my answers will be "GEM STAM!!!"
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the time and consideration Agg. My biggest question to you would be where should i go to read up on Warrior mechanics and theory that extends from the newb tank to the high end raiding info?

    I lucked out a while back and found Maintankadin which has been my source for Paladin theory crafting and through a long string of threads i have built up a considerable knowledge base on Paladin tanking.

  10. #10
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    I mean... just look around here, there's all kinds of guides. There's specifically a tank spot warrior guide video somewhere around here. I mean I guess I could write up a real quick and dirty guide real quick for you.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #11
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    No, that's okay, I can look around, I just didn't know if there was some sort of holy grail for the other classes that kinda put it all together in one place.

  12. #12
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    You're at it, lol.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  13. #13
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    Lol that's what I figured, so I thought I would ask and try and get pointed in the right direction without having to sift through things out of order and such.
    Creosmalkor, Paladin, US-Aegwynn

  14. #14
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    I have sat and thought about how the hell a druid tank manages to survive when they have a shot at eating full hits all the time. The concept of a full avoidance/EHP tank escapes me as all the Paladins in my guild stay well above the block cap with Holy Shield up. (99% uptime)

    Christ I have 112.4% myself so I'm wasting 8% block rating that could be pushed in to threat gen or stam/armor.
    Creosmalkor, Paladin, US-Aegwynn

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by abqmedic77 View Post
    I have sat and thought about how the hell a druid tank manages to survive when they have a shot at eating full hits all the time. The concept of a full avoidance/EHP tank escapes me as all the Paladins in my guild stay well above the block cap with Holy Shield up. (99% uptime)

    Christ I have 112.4% myself so I'm wasting 8% block rating that could be pushed in to threat gen or stam/armor.
    They have the HPs to take hits to the face. They also typically have more armor so the hits the do have do less damage. Druid EHP pools are sick.

    Seriously though... don't concern yourself with the 102.4%, it really doesn't matter that much. Natural avoidance on gear is enough, you want to stack EHP to be able to survive big hits because even at 102.4% there are attacks that go straight through that (fusion punch, impale, freezing slash, ferocious butt, etc. just to name a few).

    Our pally tank raid buffed has like 57k HP, with a bunch of stamina/armor and doesn't even try for the 102.4 mark, but the natural avoidance on his gear still gives him 100.4% with holy shield up.

    Seriously... don't worry about 102.4%, it doesn't matter that much. Blocking is good, but being able to take damage in the face is far more important because a lot of times if a tank is going to die its because of an unavoidable attack like that, either that or a boss is going to hit hard enough that a 2k block won't matter.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  16. #16
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    Basically what Aggathon said so much damage is unavoidable or will 2 shot you if you don't stack EH, Especially in ToC everything is unavoidable it hurts the value of avoidance so much that EH is king. The only bosses where stacking EH isn't the smart choice over avoidance is if the boss has an avoidable debuff, hits very fast, hits very slow, or where you healers can be stunned. There are none of these bosses in ToC and only about 3-4 in Ulduar not to mention the fact that you have to have a minimum EH for each one to begin with.

    TLDR: Smart choice gear for the encounter, safe choice EH.

  17. #17
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    Mostly people here have been talking about gear, which is important, but usually reasonably simple these days. More important, in my mind, is how to play well.

    I don't know if you want us to get into the nitty-gritty of ability priorities, but there are a couple simple things we could bring up. For example, with warriors and DKs, moreso than the other 2 tanks, proactive cooldown use plays a very large part in tanking. Warriors have a lot of tools they can use to help them take less damage, including Shockwave, Concussion Blow, Shield Block, Shield Wall, Last Stand+Enraged Regeneration, Demo Shout, Thunderclap.

    It's really important from a warrior perspective to make sure that your tanks are used to using these often. In fights with predictable damage spikes, they should be used for the spikes, at all other times, they should be used as often as possible. Sometimes combinations of the cooldowns are useful as well. For example, Last Stand+Juggernaut's Vitality Use effect+Enraged Regen+Lifeblood will keep me alive through quite a lot. Again, the thing to remember is that while a paladin's Ardent Defender is a reactive cooldown, warrior and DK cooldowns are highly proactive, and have to be used predictively.

    For a "warrior bible," which appears to be what you're looking for, check out:

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...ior-guide.html

  18. #18
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    Oh, and questions like these are better in the Halp! forum.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by abqmedic77 View Post
    I have done the most research in this area.

    For example: To "end game content tank" as a Paladin I feel you must meet these requirements.
    You should meet or exceed all caps: D-Cap(540), Block Cap(102.4%), Expertise Cap (26), Hit Cap(263) and having met these criteria, you gear itemization should push you above 30k unbuffed HP.
    At which point you should gem/enchant for stam and str/bv in order to maximize threat gen and overall survivability aiming for 2900 bv which seems to be the "golden zone" for survivability and threat gen.
    I have been struggling to find concise information on the mechanics of tanking for non-paladin tanks. For example, the 102.4% total avoidance or "block cap" is really only feasible due to near 100% uptime of the Holy Shield Mechanic and using 969 tanking. How the hell does a warrior meet the 102.4% total avoidance goal without Holy Shield? And lets not get in to Druid/DK tanking and the lack of mitigation by not having a shield. Am I to understand that Druids and DK's can't ever reach the point that sword and board tanks do where they can never be hit, but will avoid or mitigate all incoming damage?
    Just reading your post and see what others have said, I think you know now that some of your expectations are unrealistic. Second, you have to look at the players play style and maybe a gear inspection via the armory to make sure the player isn't doing something very wrong.
    As you have heard, 30k hp and the exp/hit/blk cap is probably not doable. I'm a stam stacker, but walk a line of avoidance, as my blk has taken a dive to 15% recently.
    Couple things I can suggest with your hectic schedule, take a moment to just read the warrior talents, druid talents and DK talents. I'd also talk to your tanks, see what they want out of gear, where they feel thier weakness is and what YOU BOTH can do to improve them.

    540 isn't a def a cap its a minimum and is still the quickest and least diminished avoidance stat.

    Of all the EXPECTATIONS you said must be met the only one that rings true is being 540 def, the rest can be solved by obtaining gear and stacking stam!!!!

  20. #20
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    Once again, I appreciate the enthusiastic response and folks telling my that my expectations of my tanks are unrealistic. The point of my post was to seek help in OTHER classes of tanks. I know very little about druid, warrior and DK tanking as I have no experience in playing other classes. Let me be more specific so that people may have a better understanding of my intent.

    1. I know that Warrior don't have a way to consistently reach 102.4% total avoidance so they stack stam to become closer to an EH tank than an avoidance/mit tank.

    2. I know that Druids are completely aviodance tanks (only mitigating thru armor) so they either don't get hit or eat 20k to the face on some fights.

    3. I know that DK's wear plate, they tank and they don't have a shield.

    And that esentially sums up my knowledge of other tanks abilities and such. Until now I have left it to the Class Leaders to oversee their people. Out guild is now big enough and we have enough tanks that we need some general oversight and direction. How can I fairly do this without understanding the mechanics of their gameplay?

    I am trying to peer into the future for my guild so that as DPS/TPS rises our tanks will be able to keep up. At some point every tank reaches a level where they are esentially maxed out on the survival aspect of their class. (in a general tanking sense not for specific fights) At this point, you maintain your survivability and start moving to deepening your health pool and maximizing threat generation.

    Perhaps I am looking at it from a too-paladin-centered thought process but I figured that the same general principals would apply across classes.
    Creosmalkor, Paladin, US-Aegwynn

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