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Thread: PTR 3.3 DK DW talent

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blasterion View Post
    well I understand Avoidance is important however much of our abilities Obliterate Frost Strike blood Strike Rune Strike are weapon dmg based and fast weapons have low weapon damage there for making our threat less effective. and no Runic Power can make up for that imo

    as for slow tanking weapons to my knowledge there is Last Laugh and Broken Promise
    @ Satorri


    there =)

    Now my question is Death Chill. Great for starting threat but Worth it?
    true, well... I will try using both and see what happens (threat wise) and what my healers say about it.

    Deah Chill not worth it imo ... Killing Machine procs alot.
    Last edited by Trork; 10-17-2009 at 08:42 AM.

  2. #22
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    Death Chill = totally not worth it.

  3. #23
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    Question!

    How exactly is Bladed Armor better than Necrosis when on a DPS standpoint, time and time again, Necrosis beats Bladed Armor for DPS gain. On a TPS standpoint, I would be FAIRLY sure that Necrosis beats it, especially in a dual wield situation.

    Unless the differencial of armor between DPS and Tank is incredibly insane that I haven't noticed...well...maybe. You get about double the armor as a tank so that's double the efficiency.

    But I wouldn't mind seeing the logic behind said statement that BA > Necrosis.

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    How exactly is Bladed Armor better than Necrosis
    As far as I can tell, from a strict damage output perspective, necrosis wins (but I have done no math on it, just some googling).

    But:

    * You really should have 51 points in frost to get Howling Blast.
    * For necrosis 5/5, that takes up 15 talent points in unholy.
    * That leaves 5 points for Blade Barrier in the blood tree (a must-have)

    ...and exactly 0 points for Scent of Blood, which is pretty much a must-have at 3/3 if you dual-wield tank; all those rune strikes chew up your RP.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    Question!

    How exactly is Bladed Armor better than Necrosis when on a DPS standpoint, time and time again, Necrosis beats Bladed Armor for DPS gain. On a TPS standpoint, I would be FAIRLY sure that Necrosis beats it, especially in a dual wield situation.

    Unless the differencial of armor between DPS and Tank is incredibly insane that I haven't noticed...well...maybe. You get about double the armor as a tank so that's double the efficiency.

    But I wouldn't mind seeing the logic behind said statement that BA > Necrosis.
    you already answered your question the difference between armor values when in frost presence is huge. I dont know the exact values atm (at work) but with dps gear and either blood or unholy presence I have ~14k Armor, on frost presence it goes up to ~25k armor, giving me a bonus of (around) 700 AP.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    Question!

    How exactly is Bladed Armor better than Necrosis when on a DPS standpoint, time and time again, Necrosis beats Bladed Armor for DPS gain. On a TPS standpoint, I would be FAIRLY sure that Necrosis beats it, especially in a dual wield situation.

    Unless the differencial of armor between DPS and Tank is incredibly insane that I haven't noticed...well...maybe. You get about double the armor as a tank so that's double the efficiency.

    But I wouldn't mind seeing the logic behind said statement that BA > Necrosis.
    I think it's because Frost Pres puts your armor at such a high level it beats it out
    sKsBlaster/Blasterion for Stim Kill Smile and Last Light on Stim Kill Smile and MedivhUS

  7. #27
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    I figured it probably is the fact that BA now is doubled because of that.

    However, Blasterion, your subtitle would make peoples' eyebrows arch up. Might wanna reconsider it.

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  8. #28
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    changed
    sKsBlaster/Blasterion for Stim Kill Smile and Last Light on Stim Kill Smile and MedivhUS

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trork View Post
    true, well... I will try using both and see what happens (threat wise) and what my healers say about it.

    Deah Chill not worth it imo ... Killing Machine procs alot.

    Edit: I only saw ur spec now after u edited, but I would rather have 5/5 Black Ice and 3/3 BotN then 3/3 Subversion 2/5 Black Ice and 1/3 BotN
    oh that wasn't my spec I quoted it
    sKsBlaster/Blasterion for Stim Kill Smile and Last Light on Stim Kill Smile and MedivhUS

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blasterion View Post
    oh that wasn't my spec I quoted it
    oops, sorry about that, removed

  11. #31
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    Sorry, I don't tend to troll on the weekends, Kren. =)

    Bladed Armor wins as a tank because of the fact that it compounds with Toughness and Frost Pres. The end result is, I'll pull some of my own numbers:

    With 31k (and change, but we'll round down) armor in raid buffs, Bladed Armor gives ~172 AP per point, or about 861 AP for 5/5 (as Blood or with a Marks Hunter or Enhance Shaman that's actually 189 AP per pt). That AP trickles down to all your abilities, whereas Necrosis only applies a flat buff to auto-attacks and RS. Let's look more closely though at those two to see what the discrepancy is (if there is one) that other moves would have to make up.

    Here are the formulae for melee swings and RS boiled down to weapon dps (X) and AP. Bear in mind this is ever so slightly simplified as far as haste goes, but that wouldn't be a huge difference and it would affect both roughly equally.

    Melee = 3.5X + 0.25AP
    RS = 5.25X + 0.525AP

    So, we'll compare per-point. 1 pt of Necrosis just increases the final damage by 4%, and 1 pt of Bladed Armor increases the AP factor by 172. We'll take a base AP of 5k, and use a 245 axe (255 dps).

    So, without either the base amount is:
    Melee = 3.5*(255) + 0.25*(5000) = 2143
    RS = 5.25*(255) + 0.525*(5000) = 3964

    1 pt of Necrosis would functionally make that:
    Melee = 2143 * 1.04 = 2228
    RS = 3964 * 1.04 = 4122

    1 pt of Bladed Armor would make it:
    Melee = 3.5*(255) + 0.25*(5172) = 2186
    RS = 5.25*(255) + 0.525*(5172) = 4054

    So, without complicating things with %'s or otherwise, you can see 1 pt of Bladed Armor increases even only just your melee swings and your RS's by more than Necrosis, *and* that will increase with the 10% AP buff from the raid, *and* that will increase almost all your other threat as well as melee swings and RS.


    Obviously this is for tanks, the same does not hold true with dps'ers as they don't have the same formidable armor. =)

    A long long time back I did the calculation to see how the presence bonuses compared for tanks (someone was asking about tanking in different presences), and as I recall I figured out that in t7-ish tank gear the bonus to AP from Frost Pres+Toughness+Bladed Armor was roughly equal in scale to the 15% flat damage bonus of Blood (and then you add the bonus threat factor...).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #32
    What rotation do you recommend with this build?

    Thank you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blasterion View Post
    Hello OP
    After seeing some of the posts I put together this
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQ3Ms60xSVqJb,aMw3O-,10571
    as my DW build. it has 5/5 Blade Armor grief that no subversion. However it contains all the necessary Talents to work.
    Now the glyphing. I find IBF a bad glyph to use since our defense can bring IBF above 30% so IBF glyph will be a hinderance imo. As well with the HB glyph Disease glyph is also unneeded. I replaced them with Frost Strike and Obliterate because i think it will help threat gen alot. however they maybe replace by UBA or RS and such. I also see no need for pestilence glyph since you won't be casting it instead you'll have HB as your Disease button. Raise Dead saves money and can be useful for a emergency Death Pact.
    Sincerely
    Blasterion

  13. #33
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    Single target I do HB OB BS BS then w/e button I can press out of these 3 while Runic Dumping
    AoE I do DnD HB BB then choose w/e button I can press out of BB FS OB HB
    trick is to try to always have buttons to press

    btw this my Updated build
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...y,aMw3O-,10571
    4/5 Killing Machine no DeathChilland 3/3 Scent of Blood
    Last edited by Blasterion; 10-20-2009 at 03:15 AM.
    sKsBlaster/Blasterion for Stim Kill Smile and Last Light on Stim Kill Smile and MedivhUS

  14. #34
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    So you're running a single disease rotation.

    You might consider trying a double disease setup. It's a little more awkward, but it does benefit a great deal, as OB and BS get noticeable damage buffs with the second disease. 2 diseases make it much nicer to hit OB every chance and use HB primarily on Rime procs (unless you're doing packs), which actually works just fine for ensuring 100% FF uptime.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #35
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    What kind of build would you guys suggest for someone that has to pick up IIT? While for 25 mans I don't always need it, when I run 10 man groups I basically am the primary supplier of melee haste.

    I was thinking of something along the lines of 11/53/7, dropping Chill of the Grave and Killing Machine to pick up the IIT chain, with 1 point in SoB... though I guess that 1 pt could go in CoTG.

    EDIT: I must learn to type numbars.
    Last edited by mav1234; 10-20-2009 at 09:08 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mav1234 View Post
    What kind of build would you guys suggest for someone that has to pick up IIT? While for 25 mans I don't always need it, when I run 10 man groups I basically am the primary supplier of melee haste.

    I was thinking of something along the lines of 13/53/7, dropping Chill of the Grave and Killing Machine to pick up the IIT chain.
    I would not get IIT as a DW Tank, to use 6 points there is way too much, and KM is a must have in frost spec (counting on u having FS as dump and have rime). Plus the melee haste is not that big of a raid dps buff (unless most of ur dps is in fact melee), which if thats the case, I would try and smooth talk one of the other dps dks to get it


    imo. dont get IIT as tank. but if you really need to have IIT try this.
    Last edited by Trork; 10-20-2009 at 09:20 AM. Reason: forgot spec

  17. #37
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    20% melee haste is a pretty huge buff, and it's not one I'm going to go without. In my 25 man groups it really isn't a big deal since we have more than one shaman (and usually one enhance), but it is something I want in my ten man groups. I realize how important KM is, especially considering our already low crit. Still, when I am the only supplier of melee haste and I want to maximize all the damage my group can do, I want this buff. 25% melee haste isn't a terrible buff to threat either, though obviously not as much as what I lose.

    Basically, if I have to get IIT, would you guys recommend Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ? I realize that I can skip the buff etc. But for now, let's assume I can't (or don't want to for this particular build). Would the point in CoTG be better than in SoB? Or would I gain more threat by doing something like dropping epidemic and annhilation, using DS, and getting KM still?

  18. #38
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    With only 1 point in SoB, and no CotG, with a DW tank build you'd get RP starved hard. Threat would likely be an issue. It would probably be worse if you took the single point out of SoB and put it in CotG.

    If you want the melee haste buff, if that is a "must have" for you, I'd go 2H frost instead. If you really want to stay DW, drop the points from epidemic and throw it into SoB.

    With 2H frost and IIT I'd spec something like this: 2h Spec
    Last edited by Bashal; 10-20-2009 at 09:42 AM.

  19. #39
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    RE: the build Trork linked (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5,aMw3e-,10571)

    I was under the impression that Bladed Armor was basically the largest threat talent we could take - is KM really better?

    RE: Bashal,

    I think you would be right about being RP starved. Might not be a bad idea to move the points from epidemic. Is there ever a point at which SoB's procs are wasted due to refreshing of them before they are used? I suppose that is not an issue when DWing.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mav1234 View Post
    I think you would be right about being RP starved. Might not be a bad idea to move the points from epidemic. Is there ever a point at which SoB's procs are wasted due to refreshing of them before they are used? I suppose that is not an issue when DWing.
    When I DW with SoB 3/3 I sometimes get an overwrite. At 2/3 though, I notice a lack of runic power.

    When I use a 2H, with SoB at 2/3, again I sometimes get an overwrite. But it's still better than 1/3.

    After messing with SoB, playing with and without it (and using other RP generating talents instead) I've found that SoB really is the best way to generate RP as a tank.

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