ToC HC - Bloodtank need advice on warrior+rogue encounter
This is my first post here, and if an identical one already excists, I apologize.
I've been tanking heroics for quite some time on my DK (blood). Most of the time, I do them with a RL friend (armory). At this point I find that all 5-man heroics are very easy, and usually clear them fast with nobody dying. Except for one...ToC. Most setups are ok, but when I get warrior+rogue, I usually get butchered - fast. Actually, the only times I've cleared ToC is when my friend have been healing. Any time I get a PuG, we can't get past the warrior+rogue setup. Now, I refuse to believe that my friend is the only competent healer on my server, so I must look at what I am doing wrong.
I have tried alternating between who is the first kill, but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference wether the group kills rogue or warrior first. After 15-20 seconds, my HP plummits and the healer can't get it back up fast enough.
My rotation is DnD-IT-PS-PE-BB for initial aggro. Then I spam DS and HS as long as diseases are up, refreshing with IT-PS when needed. I try to use defensive coolwdowns when available, but yet I keep dying.
My expertise is very low atm, so I was considering to replace some +stam gems with expertise to reduce boss parrys, which I suspect is one reason for me dying so fast, except for the MS debuff. Here is what I think could improve the situation:
-Get 26 expertise, at the expense of some stamina-gems. Is 30K unbuffed good enough? I'm at 32K atm in frost presence
-Improve rotation to maximise the use of defensive cooldowns
-Gem for more avoidance, after 26 exp. Dodge or Parry?
I would really appreciate some advice. Yesterday I was kicked from a ToC PuG for the first time and I don't want that to happend again.
Armory doesnt work at the moment (no I'll not make any comments on your gear) but here are some advices I can give you:
1. Setup in ToC hc is gamebreaking and can make the fight from very easy to very hard. The hardest possible setup is probably Warrior + Rogue + Hunter since you are going to take sh*t loads of damage.
2. The most important thing for ToC hc is good dps. With low dps (around 2k) you can pretty much forget clearing this instance unless you and the healer are really good. So next time check the dps and gear of ppl you dod the instance with, if they are wearing only blues/greens you can leave the group and tell them to gear up first. This will save you ton of frustration.
3. Back to your setup - rogue + warrior. It's crucial to kill rogue asap. Warrior (and it might be surprising to some of you) doesn't do that much damage unless he starts to use whirlwind. So the plan is - you kill rogue first then you kill warrior. Cooldown usage for this fight is very important! You don't want to waste your IBF for nothing - save it for the first whirlwind. On the 2nd whirlwind you use VB + mark of blood on warrior a bit earlier. On the 3rd whirlwind rogue should be pretty much down so single rune tap should easily put away all the stress here.
The last advice I can give you is to use D'n'D at the begining + double desise + pestilience. This will make sure all 3 enemies are glued to you. I have seen many wipes in this battle simply because 3rd target was attacking healer and he couldn't fully focus on healing the tank.
To make things easier you can ask a rogue from your group to dismantle/stunlock the rogue so he doesnt makes that much damage.
I hope it helps.
Last edited by r45hnu; 10-14-2009 at 02:20 AM.
Thanks I will try your tips regarding CD use
I completely disagree with how you handle that setup, to be honest... You should kill the Warrior first. If your healer and DPS are half decent they will be able to cleanse poison/move out of the poison limiting the rogues damage. The Warrior does mortal strike and a huge whirlwind AoE that will wipe out any of your DPS if they get caught in it most of the time.
If you get a healer who cannot remove poison (i.e. priest), the rogue needs to go down first. Otherwise, make sure your healers are clearing the stacking poison debuff, and get the warrior down first. His rolling throws annoy the hell out of me and always throw me out of position, and mortal strike is pretty deadly as well. One other thing you could do is if you see the poison debuff stacking too high, pop up anti-magic shell to block the damage and refill your RP bar as a bonus. Always stay out of the poison bottle puddles (when I heal the encounter, the only times the tank/dps take huge amounts of damage is when they're taking a bath in it), save IBF/VB for mortal strike, and make sure the rolling throw (which turns your back towards all the mobs) doesn't get you out of position for too long and you should get it. I've found that as long as I was facing the warrior, his whirlwinds don't hurt me too much.
When I tank that I always do warrior first for the same reason Joker says. The tank can easily kite both the war and rogue out of the rogue's stationary poison aoe. As soon as you see the ground go green, move, and move far enough away that your dps behind the mob will also be out of it. The warrior's mortal strike and whirlwind (esp w/ melee dps) I find cause worse problems.
Another thing I do recently is I start the fight gripping the ranged mob to me (hunter, if 2 ranged, grip hunter, Strangulate mage). That pulls all 3 into the center, so you can then continually circle-kite the war/rogue/shammy around the ranged, which keeps the ranged in your AoE and pestilence, while keep you and your dps constantly out of the rogue's poison aoe. (hard to circle-kite in the corner where they start).
Also blow Vampiric Blood right at the start of that fight, b/c w/ all 3 champions hitting you is when you'll take the most spike damage. When VB fades, then IBF if still needed, and hope you can down the first one b/f IBF fades. MoB on the warrior or rogue too.
I tend to kill Warrior first; but most important consideration is STAY OUT OF THE GREEN STUFF. The floor is the most dangerous place in WoW.
I agree that the rogue poison bottle is the most dangerous stuff. Which is why i always go for the rogue first. Even a slight server lag can mean somebody dies in that puddle or the healer has to compansate, leaving you vulnerable. Yes the warrior is dangerous but he's melee after all and mostly single target if people learn to stay out of his whirlwind. As a tank you can handle melee. I've done it both ways, warrior first or rogue first, one is always better than the other depending on your group setup - but rogue first is SAFER!
Cooldown use at the start is crucial as everyone said. The rolling knockback is nasty, the MS is nasty but that should all be stuff you can survive - if you're the only one the healer is healing. The rogue's FoK, poison and especially the 3rd dude as somebody said can really mess up your healer. Positioning is everything. I dont like the DG start as some random is likely to start dps on rogue/warrior asap. I therefore approach at angle make sure i pop my DnD to cover all 3 mobs and move a lot so i'm facing everybody. Once my diseases are up & bb all done, i dg the 3rd if it's anything but the mage, if it's the mage, i strangulate (you dont want the mage too near due to his nova ability, the time he spends running should help you some)
DPSing the same target at the start is much easier than avoiding the Warrior's Whirlwind, so if they're doing the former they are most certainly going to do the latter.
Shaman -> Warrior -> Rogue -> Hunter -> Mage is the order I use and it always works, even with poor DPS.