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Thread: Poorly geared pally easier to heal than well geared warrior? What am I missing....

  1. #41
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    And there you have it, healers are the number 1 class that loves SM.

    Jokes aside, that shouldn't be your problem as many have determined. One bit I'd like to add that could affect this would be the comfort zone. Especially when they already have some subconcious inclination that you could/should take less dmg. Why I'm saying this is... they probably felt that the paladin was undergeared and couldn't spare any loss of time before throwing out heals. Therefore putting everyone on top of their game whilst with you, the heal corps might be thinking that it's ok for a 1 - 2 second lapse in healing.

    If you factor in all the heals in your raid who's doing this subconciously then there will be a short time where there isn't an incoming heal which might have caused a wipe. All this is just hypothetical offcourse but I've noticed that some healers perform better when they think it's only a slim chance of keeping the tank alive, and then perform better at healing.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
    Do people still feel this is ture? Ever since the Argent Defender nerf tanks are all one big muddled mess for me. Yes, Blood DKs spike more but seem to get more healing faster (their selfhealing), and outside of that... they take damage. I heal it.

    I don't notice any difference, sorry. :X
    When I am healing on the rare occasion, I don't notice any real difference between our DK, Warrior, or other Pally Tank (we don't have a druid tank atm to compare to), but I don't heal enough really to have a totally solid assessment.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    No, just...no.

    Warrior tanks are more difficult to play (I have not played one myself but heard it many a time from people who have played both), but when warriors are played right they are as effective as a paladin tank.

    If you think paladin tanks are OP compared to warrior tanks, then you just haven't met a good warrior tank. I have met both good and bad warrior and paladin tanks, and I can tell you, neither has a clear advantage over the other.
    Bashal, between playing the two classes, I don't feel either is more difficult than the other. You are however right in the defense that Paladin tanks aren't superior to Warriors.
    I think we both agree a Warrior Vs Paladin debate is something that needs to stay on the wow forums along with the other sorts of threads like that. But yeah I'm agreeing with ya, neither is superior to the other.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post

    The OP part of AD is that its not a button press it occurs automatically when it is needed and was given to a class that was already stupidly simple to play. The auto revive part of AD is fictional ask any pally the number of times it actually saved a raid if it procs often you live to die some 5 seconds later ... my AD surival raid save count is 0.
    It's saved my raid numerous times.
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  5. #45
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    yeah.. i have same problem with that damage received when tank on 25 TOTGC. I run with 2 protadin and me warrior. The rotation taunt pally > warrior > pally. Same experience when i start taunt for 2nd round rotation i use shield block + Shield wall.. everything look ok but when my shield wall finnish, i will quick die. Look like healer hard while on heal me on 2nd round rotation. It will happen after 2-3 wipe after pally use devine (dont know the spell from pally) im not die. But my conclussion from my view.. im always die first compared the 2 protadin. Look like warr weak compared to protadin. Its true ?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by wgu8312 View Post
    yeah.. i have same problem with that damage received when tank on 25 TOTGC. I run with 2 protadin and me warrior. The rotation taunt pally > warrior > pally. Same experience when i start taunt for 2nd round rotation i use shield block + Shield wall.. everything look ok but when my shield wall finnish, i will quick die. Look like healer hard while on heal me on 2nd round rotation. It will happen after 2-3 wipe after pally use devine (dont know the spell from pally) im not die. But my conclussion from my view.. im always die first compared the 2 protadin. Look like warr weak compared to protadin. Its true ?
    I suspect english isn't your first language? ^_^
    Or this was a markov chain text generator.

    Anyways, Warriors aren't weaker, but if you taunt with Shield Wall up, your healers will adjust to the incoming damage profile you show. 10 seconds later, it increases by 66%, and you die.

    If you do something like this, at least have a mod which announces to the healers that your Shield Wall is fired so they know to keep the big heals ready for when it ends. Or use it reactively once the damage spikes up.

    If you specifically mean Gormok, you should not need Shield Wall right as you taunt. Damage is very healable then.
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  7. #47
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    Only different thing that make paladin more easy to heal is AD.Rest is same,more less.I passed my spot in our 1st kill of 1st ToGC cause of that.It is healer issue not tank class issue.With paladin they have one chance to make mistake with warrior one missed external cd is dead tank.That is my opinion,since I didn't saw any that make me less good tank than paladin,so I think we have again sart 3d issue ,cause of one fight and that fight is 1st ToGC boss.So yes they are better choice if you have weak healing squad but if you healers are good I rly don't see any that they do better than me.

  8. #48
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    I've experienced the same. Paladins in worse gear staying alive more easily. Kind of frustrating. Fortunately it's less extreme since the AD nerf, but still noticable, or so it seems.
    The AD automatic heal is a really big mistake and poor taste. An essential thing such as a tanking cooldown should not be automatic, ever.

  9. #49
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    After reviewing a month+ Logs from doing ToGCr NRB I can tell you there is no difference in average DTPS for warriors paladins and druids. Numbers don't lie, perception clouds peoples opinions.

    Warriors enjoy advantages as well, they just not as noticable as a 1up. Warbringer owns for clearing toxin. 5s max to clear players and return to the mob. Further Shield Block is way better then holy shield in any situation where shield block can cooldown while not tanking.

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stengel View Post
    I've experienced the same. Paladins in worse gear staying alive more easily. Kind of frustrating. Fortunately it's less extreme since the AD nerf, but still noticable, or so it seems.
    The AD automatic heal is a really big mistake and poor taste. An essential thing such as a tanking cooldown should not be automatic, ever.
    My main (Bashal) is a resto shaman. Regardless of the tank class I'm healing, I don't have significantly more difficulty keeping one tanking class alive over another. The only factor which matters in my experience is the skill of the tank (hitting cooldowns at the right time, mob positioning, etc.) and how well geared they are. Undergeared tanks are harder to heal, regardless of class.

    Any healer who has healed for a lot of different tanks can tell you: the only difference between tank classes is the pattern of damage they will take during the course of a fight. If a healer is unfamiliar with or rusty at healing a certain class, then yeah, it'll look like a certain tank is harder to keep alive.

    As has been said multiple times: if the healers are aware that one tank is undergeared, they can fall into the trap of spending too much time (over)healing the undergeared tank. Then the more geared one dies.

    End of story.

  11. #51
    As a follow up to my original post, I went back and compared some of the healing numbers from recount and they confirmed what some of you said here. Granted, it is recount and just some very rough math on my part, but during the times that he was tanking the healers were giving him 20% more heals than they were giving me while I was tanking (overhealing him a lot more as a result too). So basically the situation becomes an undergeared pally tank is easier to keep up when he gets 20% more heals than a better geared warrior tank.

    My impression is that the healers we overcompensating and then being surprised at how "easy" he was to keep alive (the two raid healers were even throwing him heals).

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
    I suspect english isn't your first language? ^_^
    Or this was a markov chain text generator.

    Anyways, Warriors aren't weaker, but if you taunt with Shield Wall up, your healers will adjust to the incoming damage profile you show. 10 seconds later, it increases by 66%, and you die.

    If you do something like this, at least have a mod which announces to the healers that your Shield Wall is fired so they know to keep the big heals ready for when it ends. Or use it reactively once the damage spikes up.

    If you specifically mean Gormok, you should not need Shield Wall right as you taunt. Damage is very healable then.
    Yeah as u know my bad english, english is not my 1st language
    for ur information, im done down the icehowl on 25 TOTGC last nite with 2 protadin and me ( warrior ). The problem done, when my strat to tank gomok is for 2nd round rotation, i use shield block + taunt. When shield block left 1 sec, i continue use shield wall. That strat help me survive a lots. when coming my turn on 3rd round rotation, gomok close die for a few sec.

  13. #53
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    Do warriors have any talents that give them bonuses to heals?
    Divinity - Spell - World of Warcraft

    Not to mention passive damage reduction
    Improved Righteous Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft
    Glyph of Divine Plea - Item - World of Warcraft

    I have noticed when tanking along side a druid and a warrior I took a LOT less damage than them.
    Druid around 46% taken, Warrior about 35% and myself 29%. That said at one stage I was tanking with two other prot paladins, and the others each took about 10-20% more damage than me.

    The AD automatic heal is a really big mistake and poor taste. An essential thing such as a tanking cooldown should not be automatic, ever.
    Unless it helps you, amirite.
    It's our version of last stand in a once off form. You can pop yours when you're getting low and for 20 seconds you have the extra HP. Ours is done once it's used.
    Last edited by Niian; 10-20-2009 at 12:14 AM.

  14. #54
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    Only Paladins have that healing talent (atleast for tanking)
    Bears have a glyphed Enraged Regen for 20% and Blood DKs have vampiric Blood for 35%, but those I consider cooldowns.

    Warriors have 10% damage reduction from Defensive Stance (and 6% magic damage reduction from Improved Defensive Stance).

    And damage taken means nothing, because we can't see how long either tank has had aggro, how many Impales they got in total and if they got BoPed out of it, ...
    Please don't be focus on meters, especially not as a tank. Untill you can find us all a meter of (relative) damage NOT taken, leave meter whoring to DPS.

    On AD:
    It's not just that your Last Stand is on auto-cast, which I could live with. But it's als that you have the Thunderclap & Demo Shout debuffs on an auto-cast as well. The only cooldown Paladins have to consider is Bubble Wall, and as both a healer and a multi-class tank, I'm worried some Paladins don't know how important keeping up debuffs are for other specs because bluntly put, Blizzard does it for them.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    The only cooldown Paladins have to consider is Bubble Wall, and as both a healer and a multi-class tank, I'm worried some Paladins don't know how important keeping up debuffs are for other specs because bluntly put, Blizzard does it for them.
    In general, I think at least the old timer paladin tanks understand it better than most warriors do. We always had to have a token warrior put it up for us or not have it at all, so in TBC we saw the effects of missing it more. Back on progression kills of FLK for example, not having demo and TC was pretty brutal if you were assigned as the shaman tank.

  16. #56
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    i've followed this thread with alot of interest.In our raid we use 3 tanks on gor, a pally(main),a druid, and warrior(me).I'm the squishy one...I trigger invuln potion during the tank before me's tanking the boss, then use shield wall and shield block as i taunt.Usually i get through this rotation...BUT on the second when i use my trinket and last stand i die on the second impale...and in case you are wondering i DO use my cookie,enraged regen, etc but go down 90% of the time...raid buffed i'm at 47k hp.

    I do know how to time my cooldowns etc, but realistically, it seems on that fight i die a ton!...i really shine elsewhere though...so its all good)

  17. #57
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    are you popping LS as you taunt? that may be a problem.

    gormok impales every 10 seconds, tanks cry out pretty soon after they get the second stack of imaple, a good tank taunts as sson as he sees theat second stack of imaple go up on his buddy. if you pop LS as you taunt, 20 seconds later Gormoks gonna lay on his second stack of imaple and your gonna lose the +30% health from LS. thats where i find most of my tank deaths come from the moment my cooldowns wear off as suddenly the healers have to do some more work to keep me up, and its this sudden pseudo spike that healers can't heal.

  18. #58
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    Nahmette, you might consider switching your CD usage around.

    The first rotation through you don't want to blow shield wall, you're better off using trinkets, potions, shield block, and even last stand during that first one.

    Gormok gains a stacking buff that makes him hit harder and harder.

    Gaining 30% of your hp against a 50% harder hitting boss is less effective than reducing a 50% harder hitting boss by 40%.

    Minor cooldowns during first tanking rotation
    Major cooldowns during 2nd rotation

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  19. #59
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    while the difference isn't significant enough to simply say that paladins are no matter what better than warriors, even if played by lesser skilled people, it's still a mathematical fact that paladins have 8-9% more effective health than warriors in any situation. The damage taken and "mana sponge" part is something I won't elaborate about as I simply don't believe that it matters in the current content.

    Our main tank healers simply spam away on the tanks since they don't go oom. In that kind of scenario avoidance really only barely matters. The only thing that counts currently is effective health and on that field druids are currently the king with 20% more than warriors, followed by paladins who are as mentioned before 8-9% above warriors in an equal i-level gearset.

    Again I'm a warrior myself and I don't see these differences making me unable to MT, but I disagree with those that simply discard the fact that paladins and druids have better survivability currently.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Only Paladins have that healing talent (atleast for tanking)
    Bears have a glyphed Enraged Regen for 20% and Blood DKs have vampiric Blood for 35%, but those I consider cooldowns.

    Warriors have 10% damage reduction from Defensive Stance (and 6% magic damage reduction from Improved Defensive Stance).
    Please, make sure you know exactly what is the importance of what you talk about before throwing comparisons.
    1) Divinity is a dubious talent, for taking 5% more healing doesn't make a difference against any tank killer. Current tank killers are about losing all your health before a heal even lands. Divinity only favors a tank where heals are scarce and the damage is a slow health leak. Currently healers can fill tanks' health within a single cast, thus making it a "you get overhealed for more" talent.
    2) the damage reductions you added there are surprisingly closer than you may think. imp rf and glyphed plea, together, account for a total of 8,82% damage reduction, and 11,5% with shield of the templar.
    On AD:
    It's not just that your Last Stand is on auto-cast, which I could live with. But it's als that you have the Thunderclap & Demo Shout debuffs on an auto-cast as well. The only cooldown Paladins have to consider is Bubble Wall, and as both a healer and a multi-class tank, I'm worried some Paladins don't know how important keeping up debuffs are for other specs because bluntly put, Blizzard does it for them.
    This one is a little harder to evaluate. We have passive shout/slow, but they're single target only(vindication, our shout equivalent, will at best hit three people at once). This alone already opens the doubt about aoe tanking. Looking at boss tanking, indeed we don't have any active effort towards keeping them up.

    However, our threat rotation is hardset on the gcds and losing any of our abilities in favor of a gcd-locked cooldown(we have sacred shield) has trouble potential(vindication and Just last only a few seconds. One missed judgment and you risk losing the slow. Bad luck with procs and you lose vindication.

    Just saying, comparing the equivalent abilities are a very, very large if.

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