Would be interesting to see a WWS/WoL/WMO parse and see how many times he gained the Ardent Defender proc. That may help with your investigation.
I'd assume, as many of the replies have stated, that this is merely a perception issue. You could talk numbers, with ardent defender proccing, or abilities being used at certain times, and all of this may be a part of it, but i would guess that it could be something as simple as the fact that you have 12k more hp than him. You stated that your healers are experienced, but the impact of a 10k heal on a health bar holding 38k hp will always look like a bigger heal than one on a 50k health bar. Every time a healer sees a health bar shoot to full, they get a satisfied feeling, which may happen with one heal on your pally friend, but with 50k hp on your bar, it may take them a couple heals to top you off. If you didn't put thought into it, as a healer, you would jump to the conclusion that the pally was easier to heal, even if he was taking more damage.
Would be interesting to see a WWS/WoL/WMO parse and see how many times he gained the Ardent Defender proc. That may help with your investigation.
I am glad someone else is having this same "Perception over Reality" discussion in guild.
My wife is the MH for our guild and I trade MT/ OT with a Pallie, we are similarly geared but she swears up and down my spikier damage is harder to heal and that the Pallie should always be MT for us over me. He nor I care who is MT or OT as long as we progress and clear content, so we trade off allot depending on the fight.
In a nutshell I appreciate this thread!!!
Having played a war tank back in BC and my current prot pally, I can say that pallies are a lot less spikey. It seems like we take more hits but block most of the hits. This helps smooth out the incoming damage. Whereas the warrior gets hit less but when a hit lands it hits hard and isn't blocked as often as a pally.
I also heal on my pally 2550+ gear score for both prot and holy. I find that warriors are one of the spikiest in damage taken.
I would have to agree with the posters who are stating that its all perception and not a reflection of reality. Granted I do play a prot paladin most of the time but I do have a warrior that I tank with in some of the older content (Naxx/Ulduar) and I've tanked with/healed each of the 4 tanking classes. I know that when I'm healing, if I see a tank with less than optimal gear I will make sure that during the fight I focus more and probably end up playing better just because I know he's the weak link. The OP could be geared enough (his post states he's at 2850 gs) that his healers aren't on top of their game when healing him since they don't feel they need to be.
On the other side, as a tank, I've tanked with some DKs and especially some warriors that make me scratch my head because they never seem to take any significant damage, even on Gormok. Its not that I'm missing them getting healed, its just that they don't seem to dip like I feel like I do, which could just be my perception wanting to be the best I can.
Taking 3k off a 30k hit really doesn't matter, especially when the pally in question had 12k less health to begin with. 2 shots should kill him with or without block (he was rolling around 40k buffed). And regardless, I have my shield block at the start of the pull and on each taunt, so I would be getting the same benefit.Originally Posted by doomwarder
I really hate gearscore but 2550 is really low for what we are talking. He wouldn't be anywhere near this sort of content and it may be true at that point because block would be significant still like old naxxx days. Your gear score would be 4500+ which I assume is our point of reference.
** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.
I think he's talking wow-heroes gear score.
[Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
Shield block the first 10 seconds of aggro, disarm the second 10 seconds(or vice versa), eat a second impale and get taunted off. had my healers crying out if my taunt had missed the first time i pulled that becuase i was taking so little damage.
but thats the thing about "spikey" damage, its spikey, and that doesn't necassarily mean the same "more" it means that there will be times when you see a warrior drop like a stone, but it also means that there are times when a warrior will seem to laughing at the bosses patheic attempts to hurt him. which does kinda make warriors a little more of a gamble, but probably more of a payoff too if you can keep them from up through the spikes.
But as the survival and evolution thread showed the tank classes with greater EH have lower avoidances, paladins have that higher health pool becuase they do have to eat almost everything, whereas warriors only have to eat the occaisional pointy stick to the face and thats why they have lower EH as a class. and thats why pallies appear eaier to keep up, the damage they take is constant, so you can get into a rythym of damage>spam heal, whereas with the warrior its more of a bipolar ride between boredom and oh shit moments.
I know I'm cutting the quote in half and I am quoting out of context. But you'll find that consistently shaving off 3k of a boss white hit DOES make the difference wether you can survive another white hit or not. The standard 25K boss hit is currently half of the tank hp you'll get in that type of content. Here 3k is a lot when it makes you survive another hit. This is also why Disc priests bubbles get underestimated in their usefulness on tanks.
I think your numbers are a bit off.
Also remember other fights where 100% SB uptime would be very nice.
But generally speaking, warriors are as healable as Pallies. But we need to be a lot more alert for the reasons the other posters have given.
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How are my numbers off? I am the original poster, the numbers are based off of the experience that lead me to make this post. The pally had 40k buffed. If he takes a 25k hit, takes 3k off with block, he goes down to 18k. Another of those hits without a heal and guess what? I know I am not a very advanced math guy but I am pretty sure those numbers make sense. I have 52k buffed, so I can take the two hits....brings us all back to my confusion about the perceived difference between tanks.
Further, AS I STATED, my shield block is up for my time tanking gormok, so I have 100% block. As such, that cannot account for the perceived difference.
And on another note, I do not think anyone (at least any successful tanks or raid leaders I know) undervalues Disc priests. We always have a disc as one of the MT heals in 25 man situations simply because they can mitigate so much damage.
i would assume he also has the ardent defender to shave off some more of that second 25k hit.
but check the death log, i've had the impale after i taunt, the melee strike, and his thunderclap line up within 0.02 of a second. twice. in the same fight. iwas convinced i'd screwed something up gearwise and was getting critted
course on the secodn pull i took so little damage i had the healers thinking my taunt missed....
warriors are spikey.
Sorry I am used to talking about my stats... I am running raid buffed 45-47k hp, 28-29k armor, around 30% dodge, 20% parry, and 40-50% block. I know that block doesn't reduce incoming damage that much... but every little bit helps... A lot of our abilities are passive too.. meaning we don't have to react as much... 969 lather rinse and repeat. pop cool downs as needed
prot warrior has to be on his game more.... I can be talking to my wife while tanking and still stay alive and keep aggro, even during mobile fights.
of the 2 classes that I have tanked with pallys are easier... are they funner? nope. but it seems to be easier to get progression bosses down with my pally than my warrior.
sorry those are wow-heroes.com scores...
gearmod gearcores are 4800+
I must weigh in my obviously deep and meaningful opinion as somone who hasnt played wow in over a year. Are you healing him when he has bubble on (lol)
Not the point. Maybe the warrior has good gear but its gemmed/chanted/whatever else badly, and the pally, while having reasonably poor gear may be doing things right. Also along those lines, think perception, they may be at very similar levels of defensive attributes but with vastly different levels of gear. you expect the pally to go down faster than the warrior and hence he seems "easier to heal" but you expect the warrior to stay up longer and be able to take more punishment and thus consider him "harder to heal".
Btw, i TL;DR the entire thread, i am just talking from experience playing as both a tank and a healer, hardcore, in vanilla and preBC.
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If you had read the thread, or even the first post, you would have known it was the opposite. The warrior (me) is gemmed and chanted correctly while the pally was laughably itemized.
Ah, sorry then. Its a strange phenomenon! maybe people are overestimating your damage taking ability (also another unfortunate reality)
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Why bother posting if you are not going to bother reading the thread? Especially when your only contribution is "what a strange phenomenon."
To all those who have contributed reasoned analysis I am very appreciative - and it seems a consensus has been reached. This is an issue of perception vs. reality, specifically where the numbers involved do not support the perception. There seems to be agreement that warriors have a slightly spikier damage curve, but that both pallys and warriors are take equal amounts of damage (or in this case, the under geared pally was actually taking significantly more but was being spammed through it).
Thanks again to all those who contributed thoughtful responses. Moderators, this thread should now be closed as there is little more to discuss.
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