Your current build is not a "standard" progression build. Could this be some of the problem?
Warrior tanks do take alot of spike damage, but "seem" to require alot less overall healing.
I know my healers appreciate it when Im the one on General and they can finish the fight
with mana left.
In changing to the "progression" build 5/15/51, all that I would gain is the small commanding shout bonus (which I get from my fury warriors) and the small demoralizing shout bonus. The demoralizing shout bonus alone would not account for any significant difference.Originally Posted by Norik
To get back to my original point/question - was this just a perception issue or is there a distinct mechanical advantage that pallies have? I am leaning more and more towards perception.
Yes it's a perception deal. Ever heard of the Demosthenes Method? After going through sheer overkill(zomgnubtankwemuztoverhealmoar), something going the normal way does seem easy.
I am pretty sure it is a perception issue. My first set of attempts with a warrior OT on heroic ToC were with one who had like 3k less unbuffed health than you (plus poorer gear overall) and our healers (one of which was an alt) had no trouble keeping him up.
Pallies are much better tanks than warriors, but not to the point where a pally an entire tier behind would be better than the warrior.
No, just...no.
Warrior tanks are more difficult to play (I have not played one myself but heard it many a time from people who have played both), but when warriors are played right they are as effective as a paladin tank.
If you think paladin tanks are OP compared to warrior tanks, then you just haven't met a good warrior tank. I have met both good and bad warrior and paladin tanks, and I can tell you, neither has a clear advantage over the other.
10 man runs for a 25 man progression guild are kind of a poor measure. Your DPS is likely well over what is necessary and the fights are consequently shorter. A few good runs on avoidance and someone can look like a rockstar. There just isn't enough data in one clearing to find anything meaningful.
Having played both, I can easily state that you sir, are WRONG.
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
Pallies have more EH, better block, equal avoidance and the auto-revive ardent defender.
At the very worst they are about 6-7% more durable and have a free revive on a stupid spike fight like icehowl.
The AD auto revive + part of the damage reduction is meant to be a replacement for the lack of cooldown compared to other tanks.
It is shorter than last stand without the need of glyphs, it is also better because it only happens when you need it to. Pally shield wall is much better than the warrior one which requires a glyph and 2 talents.
Even if pallies and warriors had equal stats(which is not true as pallies have better EH and block), pallies would still be better due to last stand/swall vs AD and Divine Protection.
THIS ^....^
I play 3 pally tanks and 2 warrior tanks.
Pally tanks are so piss easy to play and have 1 cooldown to manage the threat generation is a simple sequence you basically press in repeated order 2 spells on a 6 sec rotation 2 on a 9 sec rotation. Basically very litttle variation in talents really all you can do is scrounge a few points from prot tree to spend on ret tree. Outside your normal threat rotation you can use Exorcism (massively long cast), you can use hammer of justice to stun or interrupt something and if shield toss is off CD you could use that. Thats all your moves in a nutshell you dont have any others.
You start with a full mana bar and all you have to worry about is going empty and you can at least chug a pot and fix that.
Warriors are the reverse alot of options on talents and alot of buttons to manage. For threat you are managing Shield slam (Proc), Devastate, Revenge, heroic strike (spam) and none of that is on rotation its all priority based. You have fillers Conc blow, Shield bash, shockwave and heroic toss if off CD. You have thunderclap debuff to maintain and usually a shout to keep up. You have 2 CD's to control for rage regen and oh you have 2 survival CD's to use. And there is still moves available we havent even discussed rend, cleave, mocking blow it goes on and on. You start with an empty rage bar and if it goes empty you pray to god enrage regen is off CD else you stand there hopelessly unable to do anything :-)
Pally tanks appear stronger because more of us retards (I count myself in this group) can do the basic play style right than the number of people who can manage the complexity of warrior tanks.
If you want an insight I know at least 3 DK ex-tanks who cant tank anymore because of the change to macros that stops them being able to load the priority into a one button press. They simply do not have the ability to watch for threat priority spells and then watch and respond to the other stuff a tank has to do.
The OP part of AD is that its not a button press it occurs automatically when it is needed and was given to a class that was already stupidly simple to play. The auto revive part of AD is fictional ask any pally the number of times it actually saved a raid if it procs often you live to die some 5 seconds later ... my AD surival raid save count is 0.
Last edited by uglybbtoo; 10-14-2009 at 09:02 PM.
** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.
Gormok the implaler makes pallies shine, His impale hits put u below 35% every hit, and that makes pallies Ad be up a fair amount of time, Where a warrior gets for crazy large amounts if u say take a 3rd,4th impale without a cooldown.
honestly, i have seen fights that favor both and all classes that can tank. I always tank w/ a prot paladin but we are very strong together. Sure there are times it seems like im taking so much more damage, but others it looks like he is getting rocked. Just bored with hearing the same discussion about how paladins are OP. A really great player mixed w/ a paladin tank has great possibilities, and yes-they can be OP themselves. I really think its much harder than mashing 1 and 2 the entire time. Crap if i could mash a 2 button macro for a warrior i would, but thats not how we work-and i like the differences. Stop crying and play, enjoy it-it is a game.
Well, if you're talking ToGC, pallys have an advantage on several fights in there because their argent defender will automatically stop them dying. Take gormok, his impale attack can easily cause tank death when he has several stacks of his damage buff. If this happens to a paladin, they automatically heal back up to 35% HP (or whatever the exact number is) and don't die. They can also clear the bleed on themself and the other tank if needed, which gives them further advantage. So in effect, it's not just perception at all but it's not really down to paladins being generally superior - they just have good answers to a lot of the high risk situations in ToGC
Healer speaking here.
It is a matter of perception. Different tanks require different healing styles. If a tank is undergeared we switch into a heavy healing rotation sod the mana. If all healers do this then it SEEMS like wow, that's all my healing. This is easy.
In normal circumstances are usually trying to save mana just a little bit only to step in when the s**t hits the fan. The ones not taking it easy have to work extra hard. Don't ask how this happens. It's simply something I observed in my 3 years of raid healing.
So if you are seriously geared the healers fall into a less alert routine causing them to be seriously shocked when you eat a serious blow. Haeling is srs bzns.
Matter of perception. AD could be a factor but not with a 14k health difference and the same avoid values. Mitigation is different, sure, but it's not that big a factor in that particular fight.
SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
pioneer of representative government who was
killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.
like I said, and from the mouth of the beast, an experienced healer.
People try to overcompensate for things, and large groups of overcompensation lead people to think "wow this was easy" because collectively they worked harder, but individually it seemed like they worked less.
It's 30%. However, it actually heals for less normally. I have had an AD heal for 236 before (and then of course died). We haven't nailed down exactly what the reduction is, but there seems to be some correlation between what % HP you were at when the hit landed and the amount healed.
We can do that, but we lose the ability to use our shield wall if we do it on ourself, so we don't typically do that. Any paladin, whether they are protection or not can remove the DoT from someone else, which is useful.
I know this is Off-Topic (the OP pretty much got his anwser anyway), but perhaps AD will simply works by preventing the killing blow up to a max of 30% HP? Simple test would be duel a Mage or something and let him auto-attack you
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
Do people still feel this is ture? Ever since the Argent Defender nerf tanks are all one big muddled mess for me. Yes, Blood DKs spike more but seem to get more healing faster (their selfhealing), and outside of that... they take damage. I heal it.
I don't notice any difference, sorry. :X
SQUEAK.
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks