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Thread: What to expect...

  1. #1
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    What to expect...

    Heres my situation: Starting this week my guild is moving into 25man ToC normal mode and while I am sure that my gearing is sufficient I am unsure on the two best trinkets I should be using.

    I cant link my armory at work because my VPN doesn't like the wow web site, so please search it out: Blackhand Server, Onslaught Guild, Xyrro is my current tank.

    These are the current trinkets I have. Which two would you use if your were just starting out in 25man toc and why?

    Eitrigg's Oath

    Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman

    The Black Heart


    Glyph of Indomitability


    Seal of the Pantheon

    Since we are starting 25man ToC tomorrow I don't have time to chase down drops from other raid zones so these trinkets are what I have to choose from. I have picked Eitrigg's Oath for the dodge and armor and the Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman for the defense. I am well aware of the debate for avoidance VS. stamina stacking so I guess All i'm really looking for is How much damage does the nasties boss in 25man hit for and will I have enough avoidance to survive or do I need a bit more stamina?

  2. #2
    Of those 5 I'd say Black Heart and Glyph of Indomitability are your two best choices.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purinna View Post
    These are the current trinkets I have. Which two would you use if your were just starting out in 25man toc and why?
    Forgot the most important part... Opinions are like rectal orifices, unless they are backed by a good reason

    Don't take that as me being snide or anything. I just like to joke is all.

    Am I too low on HP because gormak on 25man hits even harder than he does on HEROIC-10man? I get through heroic 10man just fine with what I have selected and just looking for some good explanations if I need to change?
    Last edited by Purinna; 10-12-2009 at 02:41 PM.

  4. #4
    I would agree with Quenchiest - basically you'll want to up your effective health as much as possible, which basically means stamina and armor. Those two do that. Together they should give you the most chance of surviving when learning to deal with the higher damage.

    I would also recommend a regem of those yellow defence (if possible - I know you're running close to the minimum) and hit gems to stamina. Consider gaining some defence from the chest enchant if you get close - its probably one of the 'cheaper' swaps to make.

    Edit: And one more thing. I very strongly recommend you take a point out of Cruelty and put it in the Arms tree to max out Deflection. 1% less chance to take a hit - it's a very powerful talent.
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  5. #5
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    Both Black Heart and the Glyph of Indomitability offer you armor bonuses that will cut down on the incoming damage.

    If you can handle ToGC10, you can deal with ToC25. - You do have a pretty low health pool though and it would be worthwhile to revist your gemming. 569 defense, for instance, the +20 defense gem in your boots for a +4 dodge socket?

  6. #6
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    I really dislike it that you get timed out when working on a long post and then have to log back in and lose all your work. That sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayre View Post
    I would agree with Quenchiest - basically you'll want to up your effective health as much as possible, which basically means stamina and armor. Those two do that. Together they should give you the most chance of surviving when learning to deal with the higher damage.

    I would also recommend a regem of those yellow defence (if possible - I know you're running close to the minimum) and hit gems to stamina. Consider gaining some defence from the chest enchant if you get close - its probably one of the 'cheaper' swaps to make.

    Edit: And one more thing. I very strongly recommend you take a point out of Cruelty and put it in the Arms tree to max out Deflection. 1% less chance to take a hit - it's a very powerful talent.
    Deflection isn't in the arms tree.. it's in the retribution tree and it is already maxed out? You lost me on the whole cruelty thing as well??

    Griff,

    I had a long post typed out were I had went to wowmetersonline and looked at the damage output from 10man hard ToC and 25man normal Toc comparing the damage output from the bosses and found that the only difference is an average 1k extra damage on 25man. But I took a long time doing it and tankspot logged me out when I clicked the submit button and I lost it all. I dont post here very often so I guess I got a lesson learned.

    Anyways, after looking at the damage output differences I really dont see the need to start dumping avoidance stats to stack stamina so I'm just gonna roll with what i've been using. If it goes south on Thursday night I'll be sure to post back in this thread so you can say "I told you so" but I don't ecpect that to happen.

    Thanks again.

  7. #7
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    The damage output isn't that much higher, admittedly but bear in mind things like the longer bleed time on Impale (you need to comfortably eat three stacks if you're going with two tanks for the 25-man). The main reason people say to focus on EH over avoidance is that a large amount of the incoming damage in TotC is not avoidable in any way. Impale and its bleed effect can't be, Burning Bile or Paralysing Toxin can't be, Icehowl stuns you which means you can't avoid or block anything and Anub freezes you continually, again meaning you can't avoid anything.

    You certainly want an avoidance / Block Value set for tanking Anub's adds and the Twin Val'kyr when they dual wield can be avoided (though the magic damage from the balls obviously can't) so it's not that you'll do badly so much as you're wasting a lot of your itemisation on stats which have little to no effect on the most significant parts of the instance in terms of incoming damage.

    Most people therefore recommend Def/Stam in yellows, Dodge/Stam in reds and Stam for blues. If the Hit gems are to ensure your taunts land, I'd say scrap the gems and use the Glyph of Righteous Defense for the taunt-heavy fights and switch it back out afterward. If they're for threat then maybe switching to Hit/Stam would still be sufficient to maintain aggro whilst still keeping your EH realtively high?

    Basically, you should be fine in your current gear for TotC but you're making the job a little harder than you need to, simply because high avoidance has a severely minimised effect on the most difficult parts of the encounter, which is why people are suggesting you use your EH trinkets there.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purinna View Post
    I really dislike it that you get timed out when working on a long post and then have to log back in and lose all your work. That sucks.



    Deflection isn't in the arms tree.. it's in the retribution tree and it is already maxed out? You lost me on the whole cruelty thing as well??

    Griff,

    I had a long post typed out were I had went to wowmetersonline and looked at the damage output from 10man hard ToC and 25man normal Toc comparing the damage output from the bosses and found that the only difference is an average 1k extra damage on 25man. But I took a long time doing it and tankspot logged me out when I clicked the submit button and I lost it all. I dont post here very often so I guess I got a lesson learned.

    Anyways, after looking at the damage output differences I really dont see the need to start dumping avoidance stats to stack stamina so I'm just gonna roll with what i've been using. If it goes south on Thursday night I'll be sure to post back in this thread so you can say "I told you so" but I don't ecpect that to happen.

    Thanks again.
    If you are able to survive 10man heroic, then you will have no problems with 25man normal. That said, I still think it would be smart to use EH trinkets and gear over avoidance pieces. If you haven't stepped foot into 25man ToC yet, that means you are no where near BiS geared and EH will serve you better in almost any situation. Black heart + armor trinket would do you very, very well in there.

    Your armory link shows up under your user name and it links to a warrior named purinna. That's why one of the above posters pointed out a fault in the spec.

    BTW, if you don't realize the importance of high EH right now you definitely WILL if you ever decide to step foot into 25man heroic. Your avoidance trinkets are pretty much garbage for that content since your hp is dangerously low. Even 10man heroic must be extremely scary with only 32k hp. I have about 10k more hp and 5k more armor than you and 25man heroic can still be scary. /shudder

    You are stressing your healers out by tanking with such low hp. Even on non-heroic. 32-33k unbuffed was the norm when 3.1 first hit and ppl were first stepping foot into ulduar.
    Last edited by Dragaan; 10-13-2009 at 02:28 AM.

  9. #9
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    No brewfest trinkets?

    Brewfest > Indomitability for many fights in ToC.

    Northrend Beasts - Bleeds are not effected by armor (I am unsure if the impale itself is effected). Acid / fire spew are not effected by armor. Both can kill you early on.

    Jaraxxus the only thing that's gonna kill ya is Fel-fireball or chainlightning with high stacks of his power infusion. It's possible to never take damage from either attack, and neither are effected by armor so while your learning it Stam is useful, but as you master it I swap in avoidance trinkets so my healers have to pay less attention to me and can deal with the all the raid damage. Jaraxxus melee's like a bunny.

    Faction champs. PvP. About half the damage here is magical (depending on the comp you draw). Stam > armor.

    Twin Valks. Depending on the strat you employ, stam may be better for you then armor. Our guild uses a strat that heavily relies on the tanks absorbing balls while tanking the twins, therefore stam is the win for me. I believe a good portion of their melee damage is also shadow / fire tho I can't recall for certain.

    Anub - Armor is by far the win.

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  10. #10
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    Mert,

    we have four tanks for 25man... of those four two of them have offspecs for dps and can put out respectable dps if not needed for tanking. As for impale we taunt back and forth at 2 stacks and very rarely does it ever get to a third stack and if it does I can bubble out of it. Hit gems; I only have one and its a hit/stam gem so I think you might be looking at my warrior? Additionally on average for most of the encounters no healers are below 25% mana at the end of the fights, this leads me to believe that I have plenty of stamina. As it is now fully raid buffed I am at 42,800 hit points.

    Dragaan,

    I fully understand the advantages of EH, but my guild has no plans for heroic 25toc. I have been following the argument for stamina vs. avoidance for a long time and have read nearly every article on here and elitest jersk conerning it. I am not of the mind set that stamina stacking is bad and avoidance is the way to go and I am not of the opposite mindset to that as well. I try to look at what damage the boss'es are putting out and decide from there if I need more stamina or more avoidance ... more of an average balance between the two. Up to now my healers have not complained of being overworked and have not complained of me being difficult to keep up, so either they are really good healers or I have the right mix?

    I think posting here was a mistake as it is obvious that the majority of the people who have replied are firm believers in stacking as much stamina as possible to cover all your bases. Maybee it was poor articulation on my part in not describing really what I was looking for, as well. I really wasnt looking for an itmezation breakdown of my gear and gems and enchants but really just wanting to know the damage output differences between 10man heroic and 25 man and if the gap was big enough then decide if i needed to go with more stamina form trinkets or more avoidance from trinkets.

    Since the majority of the concern is over wether or not i have enough stamina to survive the encounters and whether or not the healers will have to struggle to keep me up I will make sure to log a run with you guys recomendations and also a run with my current gear. Will have some results for you on thursday night

  11. #11
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    Glyph of Indomitability

    And the Black Heart unless you have one of those lovely Brewfest Trinkets with 170 stam lying around.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purinna View Post
    I think posting here was a mistake as it is obvious that the majority of the people who have replied are firm believers in stacking as much stamina as possible to cover all your bases.
    In general, this community is about stacking the right stats for the encounter - while you've said your healers aren't going oom and aren't having trouble keeping you up, you have come to a community that primarily deals in min/maxing tanks for current content and they have fairly unanimously stated the fact that in the hardest parts of the Coliseum encounters in terms of tankdeath, avoidance has little to no effect. We're not saying it's worse on a general level - it literally does nothing whatsoever on the trickiest parts of the encounters.

    You have the potential to make the encounters far easier on yourself than you currently are, that's all people are saying. We're really just trying to help out here. In terms of the incoming damage, you'll be fine up to Anub on 25-man but it might get a little dicey at times. With 42k fully buffed, an enraged 25-man Icehowl will probably kill you and potentially therefore cause a wipe. An extra 10k health buys you a bit of extra time for one of your Hunters to get a tranq shot off, which avoids your death.

    You came here asking what to expect and this community went the extra mile by not only telling you what to expect but giving you some suggestions on what else you could do to further enhance your survivability and make the encounters go a bit easier for you. You can do it in what you have but it'd be a bit easier to make a few changes - I don't understand why you'd come for advice and then spend the entire thread saying you don't care what the advice is and that you'd go with what you already have.



  13. #13
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    The problem with stacking avoidance instead of stam for heroic beasts is as a previous poster said, the ticks are unavoidable and if you take a big hit just as a tick lands, you're going to die.

    Honestly, Heroic Gormok hits harder than any boss I can think of, going back to pre-nerf Brutallus.

    Avoidance is great but you can't avoid all of the hits and the only real way to survive the example I cited about is the use of a precious cooldown, or by having enough stam to buy your healers a sliver of extra margin to keep you alive. Avoiding 3 hits and then getting dropped in a 1 shot by the forth is far inferior to being whacked and then healed 4 times.

    I think posting here was a mistake as it is obvious that the majority of the people who have replied are firm believers in stacking as much stamina as possible to cover all your bases.


    Its good to not always accept conventional wisdom at face value, but if you reject it, you need to be able to have a concrete reason to do so. Very often, conventional wisdom is developed through practical experience and shouldn't necessarily be discarded just because it doesn't mesh with your beliefs.

  14. #14
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    If you tank the fight in a heavy avoidance set and a heavy stam set and compare the 2 logs, obviously the avoidance set will look nicer on paper (that is, if you don't die either time). High EH just gives you higher chance to survive more incoming damage, it wont make you take less. Avoidance is a nice stat, but when almost every bit of tank-killing damage comes from unavoidable sources, the choice should be obvious.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    If you tank the fight in a heavy avoidance set and a heavy stam set and compare the 2 logs, obviously the avoidance set will look nicer on paper (that is, if you don't die either time). High EH just gives you higher chance to survive more incoming damage, it wont make you take less. Avoidance is a nice stat, but when almost every bit of tank-killing damage comes from unavoidable sources, the choice should be obvious.
    Went in last night, before the raid, with 3 healers, 3 tanks and 3 dps to test this out and as you said the aovidance set looked much better on paper, but I already expected it would.

    wearing the avoidance set:
    Average damage received from melee swings was 10,077
    Average damage recieved from impale was 4280

    wearing the HP set:
    Average damage received from melee swings was 11,647
    Average damage recieved from impale was 4490

    Since the fights lasted varying times; one was 2:58, one was 5:04, one was 6:04 and the last one was 09:00 theres really no way to tell if I got in more dodges, more parries, or more blocks. It would be fantastic to say that the shorter fights were shorter because I had less avoidance, but honestly they were only shorter becase the healers weren't paying attention and did not move out of the snobolds fires. All three healers dead = short fight.

    With three tanks tanking gormok and each taunting off the other at a stack of 2, having an extra 3k health from the HP trinkets really made no difference whatsoever on the healers ability to heal through it. What did make a big difference was the healers moving out of the damn fire , Additionally when the rest of the raid was invited and we actually started it up with a full 25 people we dropped it down to just two tanks taunting off each other at a third stack of the debuff and still we had no issues. One shotted beasts of northrend, two shotted jarlaxuss, and after about 4 wipes on faction champs we ran out of time for the raid night and called it. Seems like a short night, i know, but we are a casual raid guild.

    I really can't think of a way to prove 100% which is better having more effective health or more avoidance, but im willing to bet that if someone were to have the patience and find a way to test it, avoidance is always going to result in less damage taken thus requireing less heals. Its partly why i always try to balance the two and not just stack insane amounts of stamina like allot of newer people tend to do. Maximising both and not just one, has served me well in the past and continues to do so now, so I'm going to continue with what is already working fine.

    No need to change it if it's not broken right?

    Take care fellas.

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