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Thread: Shield Enchant: The Battle Continues

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    Avoiding damage is always better than simply soaking it.
    Not necessarily...

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    Not necessarily...
    Avoiding a given amount of damage is always better than soaking it. If you disagree, please show me how it can possibly be better to just soak the damage.

    NB: I'm not referring to actual avoidance (dodge, parry etc.) here, but armor.

  3. #63
    I understand what you mean, but it's important to make the distinction between avoidance and mitigation for technical reasons.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenodorus View Post
    I understand what you mean, but it's important to make the distinction between avoidance and mitigation for technical reasons.
    Even then, avoiding a swing is better than taking it.
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  5. #65
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    I am sorry to re open this, but i just wanted to say that;
    If i get the extra "avoidance", i have a less chances to take a hit that can kill me..
    And if i get extra EHP i will be taking an attack more often, but the attack WONT kill me...

    I understand that Avoiding is always better than taking the damage, but when speaking about avoidance, it's a %, so the chances for you to get killed are still there, doesn't matter if you have a low chance...
    Avoidance is better, but when you don't avoid, you need something to be able to survive, right now as a EHP tank, i have about 62% avoidance in a 25man... 62% chance not to get hit, and 55k hp so if i get hit, i dont die... all of the avoidance you Need, comes out from your gear, the rest is just sit there and take it like a man. And if my avoidance and my EHP dont work, i always have my Ardent Defender

    Have it this way, imagine you have a tank with 99% avoidance and his avoidance can even avoid impales, breath, and even thru stuns... but any attack that hits him, will kill him...
    he will take no damage, but when an attack strikes him.. hes gonna die...

    Or you can have a tank with 50% avoidance that can't avoid impale, breath nor melee thru stun.. but needs 4 or 5 consecutive attacks to kill him...

    Which one would you have?

    Today our DK tank got insta-gib at gormok, with just 1 stack, because he got bad luck (he stacks avoidance) and got two consecutive attacks + the impale tick in a second... he got hit by 58k in... actually a littleblit less than a second, he had a bubble (which absorbs about 6-8k), he had 50k hp at that moment... if he had 2k extra health instead of 2% extra avoidance, he would have lived to get healed by something
    Last edited by MudNova; 11-18-2009 at 01:12 AM.

  6. #66
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    Well, comparing classes is a bit futile though, since every class has a different Stamina/Health multiplier scenario. Paladins, as you are, get more from Stamina than Warriors. They also have AD for extending their total EH pool, even further magnifying the difference.

    However, in your last example, that sounds like an issue of not knowing your targets in his case. I know exactly how much the worst-case burst I will take on Gormok given my armor and cooldown timing. I haven't died to the boss in months.
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  7. #67
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    Perhaps a real-world example will help people decide...

    Would you rather wear a bullet proof vest and have some guy with a blindfold on shoot at you with a with a .40cal or would you rather have the guy's son shoot at you with a pellet gun?

    Dunno about you guys but I choose the pellet gun. Ya I will probably get hit, it does hurt and I might need a bandaid to not cry but for fck sake I don't want the chance of being 1 shot in the face lawl

  8. #68
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    Today our DK tank got insta-gib at gormok, with just 1 stack, because he got bad luck (he stacks avoidance) and got two consecutive attacks + the impale tick in a second... he got hit by 58k in... actually a littleblit less than a second, he had a bubble (which absorbs about 6-8k), he had 50k hp at that moment... if he had 2k extra health instead of 2% extra avoidance, he would have lived to get healed by something

    But if he had say, 47k health, that extra 2k health wouldnt have saved him. So you see, tiny amounts of health can be useless in RNG terms just as avoidance can be. I'm not saying avoidance is the way to go, i'm just trying to point out that extra health is not always a garaunteed inceased chance of survival.
    Xanth <Valkyria>

  9. #69
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    each tiny amount of health helps you to get a bigger amount of health, just i changed my enchants from avoidance to stamina, and that gave me like 1k extra hp.

    And the way HP scales is not what really matters, since even if you're a druid with a huge amount of HP, if you dont have the avoidance, you're just going to take a hit after another. What matters is having Enough to take Enough so you can give your healers Enough time to heal.

    If you already can take a huge amount of damage, then go for avoidance, but at the point of gear we are, more avoidance isn't a big change, also.. like blizzard said; tanks are getting more avoidance than its healthy for the raid.

    I remember BC where a lot of guilds rather have a Bear be the MT because of the huge amount of HP they had, so they couldn't be 1shoted...

    Avoidance does makes damage Spiky, and it's not only that avoidance will make you get hit less, but also that healers will spam heals for when that spiky damage comes.
    When speaking of spiky, it's about how your hp BAR jumps up and down randomly.
    EHP will make you get hit more often, but your healers are already spaming heals, so the difference is that you try not to get insta-gib and give your healers a bigger windo to heal you.
    With a huge amount of avoidance (even if you dont get insta-gib) you could get down to 20% in a shot...
    With a huge amount of health, you could get down to 40% in a shot...

    As a healer back in Naxx, i remember that i did hate when the raid leader told me to heal the DK tank at Patchwerk, because they had so much avoidance, that i didnt like to heal them, cause they took not a single strike for like 10 seconds and then bang, they go from 100% to 10% in a second... it was tedious..

    what i'm trying to say is that healing the randomness spikes of a tank with shitloads of avoidance sucks...

    But like aggathon said..
    Defense helps you with half of the incoming damage (all thats avoidable)
    HP helps you with all of the incoming damage
    Last edited by MudNova; 11-18-2009 at 09:47 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by drae View Post
    QFT. Just changed edited the term "defense cap" because there is no such thing, yet we all understand what he's saying.

    If you have the stats on your gear to remain above 540 defense, use stam. If you don't use Defense to shield.

    edit: damn the differences between Canadian and American spelling.
    DEFENCE. The language is called English for a reason my fellow countryman, do not let our neighbours tell you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    If EH is king and you can neglect avoidance completely, we should all ditch our tanks for Sarth-specced Warlocks to have their VW tank & have a raid full of rogues & Hunters MD threat on it. But the fact you're still being invited to raids (other than to pick up the tanking loot drops) is because avoidance DOES matter.
    I rofl at this, it is both funny and painfully to the point. And in that case, Pet's aoe avoidance is also plenty useful for that application.

    I'ld even state what has been stated back in tBC:
    If you have 1 more HP than the worst possible combo of damage a boss can do to you before getting healed back to full, you've maxed out your EH, as all the rest is wasted due to not being used.
    Aggathon, this is the concept you understand and trying to get out there. I'm hoping nobody disputes this. What you are dancing around is that without the 18 stam, warriors have a heck of a time reaching this. Non-blood DKs also have a challenge, although they don't worry about shields.

    I think this discussion would greatly benefit if everybody was clear that it is only for TotGC 25, there are better ways to solve the problem than your shield enchant (like gearing up). And in the context of TotGC, Gormokk is the problem child. As such just as Anub needs a special block set, for some people it might be worthy to make a set just for gormokk (including an 18 stam on shield), but I am not sure how gear wealthy people are. Finally, somebody actually needs to spit out a NUMBER in this thread, as in what *is* the worst that gormokk can do to you, and what that translates to in terms of required EH. I haven't seen anybody say ##,### damage in X seconds is the worst that he can do, and for warriors having **,*** EH is what you need.

    Personally, I think the point is moot. If you confine yourself to just the shield and not a picture of all your gear, putting 20 defense, 18 stamina, or even 81 BV will not solve your problem(s). Cumulatively upping everything to stam, possibly along with other gear upgrades, it will add up. BV has a small effect as you can block some of his attacks (and will help threat). Same goes with stacking avoidance. And 18 stam, without context of where you are in minimum effective EH, is pointless to consider.

    Just to clarify for others, the tank killer situation :

    -Tank gets hit (blocked or not sometimes matters, hit is mitigated by armor). Tank is no longer at full health
    -Before the healers can (humanly possible) react, tank gets beatch slapped with Impale.
    -And again before healers can react, tank gets a tick from Impale.
    -Now, when the healers can react, Tank is already eating the floor watching the raid wipe.

    By impossible to heal, this is a time span of less than a second. Remember, a GCD of 1.5 seconds was implemented to allow the system to respond to requests.

    Look at Norik's Post, ignore the +0 heals for a second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norik View Post
    Ok, this one confuses the hell out of me

    [21:11:07.565] Paltaa Riptide Norik +222 (O: 1067)
    [21:11:07.565] Drd Lifebloom Norik +0 (O: 1072)
    [21:11:07.776] Norik Improved Leader of the Pack Norik +0 (O: 2031)
    [21:11:07.781] Norik Devastate Gormok the Impaler 1927
    [21:11:07.781] Kelyna Renew Norik +0 (O: 2702)
    [21:11:08.068] Gormok the Impaler hits Norik 16857 (B: 3622)
    [21:11:08.097] Carthelf Vampiric Embrace Norik +0 (O: 260)
    [21:11:08.144] Kelyna Prayer of Healing Norik +0 (O: 4738)
    [21:11:08.156] Gormok the Impaler Impale Norik 26574
    [21:11:08.218] Gormok the Impaler Impale Norik 4458 (O: 3785)
    [21:11:08.500] Norik dies

  11. #71
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    Nice one...

    Well to put out some numbers, i'd say that as minimun you need enough HP to survive an impale tick, an impale, and a melee attack...

    Impale stacks are not really big, with 5 stacks you get about 20k ticks...
    With two stacks you get.. i think its something like 10 or 12k..

    Impale does 20-28k

    Melee.. well i have seen 10-24k.. lol
    so, assuming you are using 3 tanks with two impale stacks, you should need something like 58k HP to survive, but if you add that holy pally can make you absorb like 2k, and a disc priest 6-8k.. then you need a minimun of 50k hp

    After that, getting more is just opening a bigger window of time for your healers, and avoidance could be better..

    But at the end this thread isnt for asking how to gear for gormok..

    Id say, as always, EHP gear is the best choice for progression... (thats the reason i would put 18stam over 22 defence)
    But if you're not working on bosses capable of hitting 58k in less than a second, then Avoidance could be better... (in which case i would use the 22defence enchant)

    There is never going to be a BiS enchant nor gear... Tanks have to be situational, and have different sets of gear for different kind of bosses.

  12. #72
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    ***DISCLAIMER***
    This post is ONLY in reference to Hardmode 25 man Northrend Beasts, especially since this fight is the general "gear check" for ToGC

    Aggathon, this is the concept you understand and trying to get out there. I'm hoping nobody disputes this. What you are dancing around is that without the 18 stam, warriors have a heck of a time reaching this. Non-blood DKs also have a challenge, although they don't worry about shields.
    Yes, and my general argument is also that you want a bit of a gap between the minimum EHP and your maximum EHP to give your healers some breathing room. This is also another hard thing for warriors to do at the moment (stupid 6% stam scaling instead of 10%!). Your healers are gonna get really cranky with you if you end up at 1HP, lol. It's also hard to calculate that exact minimum EHP. If what Mud says is accurate, even in my gear I'm still almost 6K hps buffed short of the EHP mark.

    But like I said, is having 20 defense instead of 18 stam going to wipe your raid? Heck no. Am I going to gem 20 defense? Also no: unless a fight specifically requires extra avoidance. I've talked to my healers and they'd rather me keep widening the gap between my maximum EHP and the minimum EHP of the encounter in order to give them more leeway.
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  13. #73
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    Although perhaps a bit pedantic...you hardly need any health threshold for Gormok if you have a proper cooldown rotation on your tanks. With a 3-tank 4/2/2/2/2/2 "rotation" the gear threshold is actually not nearly as much as it initially appears to be--we had two semi-geared alt tanks (one being a Warrior) with me last week (due to a freak occurance with 2 1/2 MTs not being available on the same night!) with no troubles at all.

    First tank takes 4 when the burst damage is very low (no damage buff) and the reminaing phases can be cooldowned. Personally I take the 3rd and 6th rotation, Last Stand the first Impales (68k health ought to be enough for anyone!) and Shield Wall the second set of Impales.

    I've run the fight with as low as 48k health (experimenting with Armor trinkets) and still not died to Gormok--or come even close, for that matter--in months.

    So, while this isn't a thread about Northrend Beasts specifically, I would say that the HP threshold needed to survive burst damage in TotC-H is considerably overblown by many people. If you have around 50-51k health (or around 49k with the armor trinket) as a Warrior you can basically survive everything you will need to survive. Even our previously-mentioned DPS Warrior who slapped together a tanking set in a couple weeks managed to break 50k and survive Gormok without any trouble. So, I wouldn't say this is hard for Warriors to do by any means.

    Looking at health in a vacuum without considering your actual realistic maximum bursts or considering things such as armor is just a bit of a lost cause. I do realize it's easy to just stack Stamina since there are no considerations to be made, but it is rarely (if ever) actually needed in this tier of content. Time will tell how needed it is for ICC.

    (Oddly enough, the argument being used for Avoidance on gear is my argument against unwavering Stamina-stacking. In most cases, the gear provided right now has more than enough Stamina on it to survive the encounters in question. Using, for instance Stam/Def gems instead of Stam gems and getting socket bonuses is almost always better from my point of view due to the simple fact that you get more item budget out of it while still contributing useful stats. The same goes for the shield enchants, with the Stamina one being considerably underbudget compared to the Defense one.)
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  14. #74
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    even if you dont need that much stamina to survive, having a higher amount of stamina is gonna keep your healers happier, because (like i said) instead of taking 50% with 1 attack, you could get 40 or 30% the damage is gonna be "less spiky", with more avoidance, you could get hit less often, but in you HP bar, it seems like you get hit more often, more randomly and a lot harder... But if i already have a lot of stamina then i could probabbly go for avoidance or more mitigation... for an example, with my block value gear, i have about 34k hp.... seems low, but i can tank everything in ulduar with that gear, and mitigate a huge amount of damage, because nothing in ulduar is gonna hit for more than 20k (probabbly thorim with unbalancing strike, but there is a reason cooldowns are made for)... and i will mitigate about 4k of the incoming melee damage, which is a lot...

  15. #75
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    After you reach the EH minimum for the encounter EH will still contribute for survival, the more EH you have the more room for error it gives your healers when the spike damage comes. But on the subject of shield enchant I love EH but I would rather have the 20 defense shield enchant because of the avoidance from 20 defense being far more useful than 180 health.

  16. #76
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    Every aspect of this game is subject to personal preference. Gems, Enchants, Talents, Glyphs, Items, and Professions.

    I think the only confirmed BiS anything is the Tier 9/9.5/9.75 gloves. Cause well there isn't any other tanking gloves from 232+ content available lol.

    By all means contribute your opinions and read others (I do), but at the end of the day its your choice.

    I personally use +18 stam cause I am Defense capped for crit (really if your tanking in ToC anything how could you not be from your gear alone?) and I am not a fan of "chance" to do anything aka. avoidance. I'm a tank that likes hard base stats that will always be there for me. I will gladly take the avoidance that comes on my gear, cause hell yes you need some. But I wont be adding in any more at the expense of more Stam or Armor.

    The real debate for me is Stam V Armor.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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