Emblems of Triumph in 3.3

[squats]

General reminder: Things can still change.

The current plan is to make Emblems of Triumph the "base" of emblems so everything that drops Emblems of Conquest would be changed to Triumph and then the new raid content would drop the new highest emblem along with things like the heroic daily and such.

I understand blizzard wanting the vast majority of players to be able to see normal-mode content, but making it possible to get a full set of T9.0 just by farming heroics is just a bit to far. It was bad enough that you could get 4 set T8.5 by doing heroics and Vault when 3.2 came out... seriously.

[Volador]

When 3.3 comes out, how far behind it do you think 4.0 will be? Think about it, from Vanilla to TBC, people stopped raiding (which is why most people didn't see Naxx1.0), between TBC and Wrath people stopped raiding, I expect the same thing to happen here. Sure you can gear your toon up in a few weeks/months, BUT are you really going to put forth the effort when you will be levelling to 85 ins 3-4 months (just my estimation).

[squats]

This is great for alts for sure. Id be all for it if it were like what we normally have seen in WoTLK, 2 pices of tier from badges. But being able to get all 5 from badges is to much.

[Lulia]

It increases the pool of people that are geared enough to raid, I have no problem with that. But it does worry me that it begins to open up the potential for even more poor raiders who don't know the fundamentals of raiding and don't want to learn. That is potentially problematic and is something that is already an issue in the game, things like this increase it.

But like I said, it makes it so that more people are available to do content, which, to me, is more fun. So I'm sort of torn.

[Volador]

It increases the pool of people that are geared enough to raid, I have no problem with that. But it does worry me that it begins to open up the potential for even more poor raiders who don't know the fundamentals of raiding and don't want to learn. That is potentially problematic and is something that is already an issue in the game, things like this increase it.

But like I said, it makes it so that more people are available to do content, which, to me, is more fun. So I'm sort of torn.

I know Sunwell came out after BT, but is there really going to be a raid after Icecrown? I don't see levelling the playing field for levelling your character from 80-85 as a bad thing.

[theholyfx]

Thats a set of the lowest quality tier set, the same quality of gear that will be dropping from the new heroic. It makes sense that you would be able to pick up the gear of the same level by running heroics.

You will still be able to keep your epeen if your running 25 man level content.

[Lulia]

I know Sunwell came out after BT, but is there really going to be a raid after Icecrown? I don't see levelling the playing field for levelling your character from 80-85 as a bad thing.

Oh, there will most likely be at least one raid after Icecrown and before Cataclysm. My personal guess is that there will be more than just one.

[veneretio]

This change really shouldn't come as any surprise to anyone.

[Kazeyonoma]

Oh, there will most likely be at least one raid after Icecrown and before Cataclysm. My personal guess is that there will be more than just one.

I doubt it.

Content comes out in waves, generally of 5-6 months (coinciding with Arena seasons). Since ToC came out around july, come january we'll probably see a new season for arenas start, as well as Icecrown. 6 months from then, is june, and that is likely, when cataclysm is slated to be released because at blizzcon Chris Metzen was quoted to say "by next blizzcon, you guys will be complaining to me about goblin rogues ganking you".

[Zyffyr]

So everyone can get an easy set of iLevel 232. If it means that much to you, get a set of the 245s or 258s. You can then feel better about yourself.

BTW, someone who just does the Heroic Daily every single day (and started doing so when 3.2 came out) would have their 5pc T9 (232) around the time 3.3 hits anyway. 3x50+2x30 = 240 Triumphs = 120 days.

3.2 was released Aug 4. 120 days later is December 1st.

Add in doing VoA10 and VoA25 each week, and you are up to 18/week without setting foot in ToC. That is 13 weeks + 1 to 3 days (1 day if you do your VoAs on Tuesday, longer if you do them later in the week). Such a person would have it between Nov3 and Nov 5.

edit:
Should that person be lucky and get both the gloves and legs from VoA, their emblem requirement drops to 130. 7 weeks + 4 badges. That person had their full T9 on Sept 22 or 23.
end edit

All this does is speed that process.

Note : I know that Koralon wasn't actually added when 3.2 was released and he came a few weeks later but I am not in the mood to look up the actual date. Add 1-2 weeks to the 2nd and 3rd examples to allow for the fact that you couldn't get Triumphs from VoA immediately.

[squats]

I doubt it.

Content comes out in waves, generally of 5-6 months (coinciding with Arena seasons). Since ToC came out around july, come january we'll probably see a new season for arenas start, as well as Icecrown. 6 months from then, is june, and that is likely, when cataclysm is slated to be released because at blizzcon Chris Metzen was quoted to say "by next blizzcon, you guys will be complaining to me about goblin rogues ganking you".

during last years blizzcon they specifically said there would only be 3 major patches. Ulduar, ToC, Ice crown. so yeah, kaz is right. after 3.3 hits its full sail to cataclysm

[Liquidska]

It increases the pool of people that are geared enough to raid, I have no problem with that. But it does worry me that it begins to open up the potential for even more poor raiders who don't know the fundamentals of raiding and don't want to learn. That is potentially problematic and is something that is already an issue in the game, things like this increase it.

I pug'd a warrior in to my Ony 25 the other day, we wiped on something dumb and he didnt release. I asked him if he was afk or dc'd or something and he told me that he got food while heals ran back to rez him. He had 2 peice t9 slotted with green gems.

I know what you mean.

[Ricovega]

so this is what blizzard are gonna do every patch? makes me wonder why i bother putting all the effort in 25 man raiding in the first place - all those tireless evenings playing all evening with guild to slowly and painfully progress - use my dkp etc when I could just quit, save myself £9 a month for a few months and wait til the next patch to gear back up again from running a few heroics....

the system is severely flawed, rare items are supposed to be, well, rare, not easily available within 2 months

[Kazeyonoma]

Ricovega, so then you save yourself a few bucks, you don't play a game you're supposed to enjoy, and you get back into the game 2 months later with some out of date gear. and no raiding experience.

I'm sorry but if you play this game for ONLY the gear, then I think you're playing it for all the wrong reasons. Gear is fun to get, but the experience of raiding, playing with friends, getting achievements or progression fights down, and earning your keep. To me, that's what this game is about, not whether I get the same gear as someone who runs heroics.

Do you care right now really that some pug tank has t 8 chest/helm? I don't, cuz I am getting t9+. Just like when t10 comes out, I won't care who gets t9.

[Volador]

so this is what blizzard are gonna do every patch? makes me wonder why i bother putting all the effort in 25 man raiding in the first place - all those tireless evenings playing all evening with guild to slowly and painfully progress - use my dkp etc when I could just quit, save myself £9 a month for a few months and wait til the next patch to gear back up again from running a few heroics....

the system is severely flawed, rare items are supposed to be, well, rare, not easily available within 2 months

I would greatly appreciate you pointing me in the direction of a weapon for every class in every role for sale with emblems ... Raiding still benefits you ... you might be able to get a few/more than a few items with emblems, but there are several items you just won't get.

[MellvarTank]

Rare items are still rare. Shields? Have to raid. Weapons? Have to raid. The best of the best gear does not get bought with emblems, and they have kept it that way.

Being able to gear up without being in a raid is actually good for a lot of people who can't get into anything but pug raids because they aren't part of a guild, or a guild that raids. Same thing happened with the last patch, everyone had the same argument.

I thought it was great! I geared up, did my research, and started raiding, on off nights I could still farm badges for my off-spec so that I am actually useful in a raid group and don't feel the need to roll on every piece of plate armor that drops whether it be dps or tank just because I had to switch spec for a fight.

Some people are going to abuse the system, some people will use the system as it is intended. What's wrong with that? The players, not the game.

[Karatheya]

It increases the pool of people that are geared enough to raid, I have no problem with that. But it does worry me that it begins to open up the potential for even more poor raiders who don't know the fundamentals of raiding and don't want to learn. That is potentially problematic and is something that is already an issue in the game, things like this increase it.

It puts the onus on guild / raid leaders to find some way other than gear to differentiate players. I think we've become too obsessed with gearscores and such to get a read on people.

It used to be that we could say "that person has tier 3. They must be good, because the only way you can get that is by doing Naxx-40 and no guild will carry a poor player that far".

Basically we started equating gear with skill (despite all the posts to the contrary on the forums). This basic premise no longer holds true.

Now, we need to learn to evaluate applicants based on their knowledge / attitude / ability to learn strategies / etc.

More work for us? Definately. But overall a good change? Yes.

Conversely, accepting this change but not modifying how you evaluate applicants is going to leave you with a motley crew that doesn't function as a cohesive unit.

Nobody said leadership was going to be easy.

[Lulia]

I agree, Karatheya. But it also means that you have little to go off of when you first meet someone, which can potentially mean some pretty nasty wipes in the raid before you can get the proper people in. With the state of PUGs today, no one wants to seem to wait for the group to build itself properly, so that only seems to work as far as guilds are concerned.

There is also the additional issue of people being "too squeamish" about kicking people out of raids. As a raid leader it's probably one of my biggest issues, but something that we need to do more of.

I remember seeing the other day, in LFG, someone requesting achievements in order to get into a raid. It's something that frustrates me, though I can see the logic behind it. When your guild isn't doing a particular raid and you have to pug it, the only way to get in it is to pug, and the only way to finish is generally a good pug.

It seems that raid leaders these days want to protect themselves though. Even though plenty of players that don't "know" the fights could pick them up quickly, they'd rather not take the risk of getting someone who doesn't learn the fights and doesn't care to, because they'll have a hard time kicking them out.

So really, yes, Guild and Raid leaders need to be more of the leaders they are meant to be, including in making the tough judgments. But expecting the WoW community as a whole to embrace that is a bit much. Which means plenty of problems for raids in the future.

As I said, I'm not against the change in 3.3, I'm very much in favor in some of what it offers. I'm just wary about the inevitable consequences for the negative as well. A balanced opinion I guess.

[Demianu27]

I'm happy with this.

Playing with a select group of friends and gearing up at the same time is the best way to play wow.

Having to schedule time to play a game with 25 people you pretend know just to experience story lines or get some gear makes Warcraft a job more than a game. It's not worth it.

[Erja]

Seriously, this debate has been had numerous times over again.

People aren't clearing TotGC10/25 with their Emblem of Conquest welfare gear, and they won't be clearing ICC hardmodes with their Emblem of Triumph welfare gear. World firsts, server firsts, hardmodes, etc. will still go to guilds that raid 10/25 man at a high level. Casuals, alts, and people who are coming back to WoW from extended time off will be able to assemble a decent set of entry-level raid gear. How is this a problem?