taunt, hit rating and gormok?

[daj]

hey everyone,

i hope this belongs into the "theory and mechanics". i use gormok as a specific example with questions, but i basically want to talk about the hit in general, how and why big tanks lost interest.

so lets start: when i began running bigger raids, i kind of started to balance all my stats and capped as much as possible (threat: expertise > hit; avoidance: dodge > parry). i followed simple guidelines i found everywhere on the web, did some math here and there to perfect my char. i could tank really anything in game without ever doubting what i have done so far. until TOC: Gormok. of course we got past him, but this fight left a lot of questions in terms of fight mechanics unanswered. and this is why i turn to you folks.

gormok really seems to like to resist my taunts (does affect my first taunt, so no diminishing returns). this made me ask myself: what is taunt REALLY? after little research i found out, its a physical spell with a 17% chance to miss. just a clarification question here: if i could theoretically stack 17% hit (lets ignore the base 1% miss chance and the immunes ), no lvl 83 boss could resist my taunt, right?
Now, as i have been checking on Xav, Kungen and other fellows profiles from time to time, I was really astonished to find hit-rating-numbers of somewhere around 1.5%, far away of the hit cap.
interpreting these two facts: I theoretically would need hit rating to decrease the chance to resist my taunt, but "bigger" tanks do not even have any hit rating at all.

so here come my questions.
- first of all I know i dont have 17% hit, its more like 7%, so theres 1 in 10 chance to miss. but gormok really resists at least one taunt a fight. i usually only taunt twice or three times. is there something special about him or am i metaphorically speaking "missing" something? or is it simply just bad luck?
- secondly am I doing something completely wrong, by still trying to cap hit?
- and last but not least to continue the hit topic: why do the bigger tanks not even try to get to the hitcap? is it because we generate enough aggro nowadays with our abilities and/or equip? can we afford 5 more misses in a hundred potential hits by only having 1%-2% hit?

its kind of early in the morning here, and im kinda tired. so if anything is unclear just let me know.

thanks a lot for your help.

-j

[shiz98]

if i could theoretically stack 17% hit (lets ignore the base 1% miss chance and the immunes ), no lvl 83 boss could resist my taunt, right?

Yes. Also keep in mind this is spell hit you're working off of here, and not melee hit - the conversion ratios are different.

lets ignore the base 1% miss chance

No longer exists.

but "bigger" tanks do not even have any hit rating at all

Bigger tanks are going to have different gear sets. They may very well swap into gear that hit caps them for Gormok.

secondly am I doing something completely wrong, by still trying to cap hit?

Sorta kinda. On normal you can afford to miss a taunt. You can work around it on heroic, or just glyph for it if you're feeling like it's really a liability. Keep in mind the CD on taunt is low enough that you can get two tries in before another stack of impale is applied.

is it because we generate enough aggro nowadays with our abilities and/or equip?

Pretty much. Threat isn't hard these days, and a well-built raid has lots of options for dropping threat, increasing the tank's threat, etc.

[Zyffyr]

1)There is no base 1% miss chance. That was removed in 3.0, roughly a year ago.

2)Hit rating converts to Spell hit 1.25x the conversion to melee hit. 8% Melee hit (the cap) equals 10% Spell Hit. If you are at 7% melee, you will have 8.75% spell, giveing a miss rate of 8.25% (approximately 1 in 12)

3)The top tanks aren't really going for hit for 2 reasons :
a)most abilities are effected by Expertise. Until the soft cap Expertise is twice the value of Hit, then equal after that (until you reach the hard cap for the boss in question)
b)The T9/ToC gear generally lacks +hit (though a few pieces do have some). Gearing for hit frequently means using lower level equipment. As a result, it will only be used in the specific cases where it is needed.

4)If you are in a Taunt critical fight, you can potentially put Vigilance on the other tank and/or use Glyph of Taunt

[Toblerone]

For fights like Heroic Gormok it's extremely beneficial to use Glyph of Taunt. Assuming you have a Draenei in your party and a Shadow Priest or Boomkin in the raid, you then only need to find 5% spell hit (roughly 130 hit rating) to be at the cap.

[Mookey]

1) Glyph of Taunt +hit gear + hit food + Vigilance on OT to be safe
2) When you get fight in control glyph+vigilance is only what's needed.
3) In numbers you need 263 hit rating + glyph to never miss taunt (this is without moonkin/sp)

[onyx]

As others mentioned, Glyph of Taunt for these types of situations is a must.

[Haur]

Glyph of tauned is imo wasted glyph spot, i would put viglilance on current tank just before you taunt and you have free taunts in case any taunt fails (also you have taunt, mocking and aoe taunt, if all fails, shit happens :P). If threat reduction seems problem you can also put vigilance on somone that has snobold, and they will refresh your taunts.

[daj]

thanks a lot for all the answers.

hehe allright, i found the 1% on wowwikki assuming it would still exist...

im also working with different gear sets: EH, avoidance, optimal (trying to reach every cap and not loose too much EH) and of course the tank dmg...i just created a hit set, looks just fine. i only loose 1.5% avoidance, 1k hp and armor each. im now reaching with buff food and the draenei ability 14% spell hit. i guess i can afford the 3% miss chance in combination with the vigilance. im going to check it next id.
just one question regarding vigilance: does it only reduce the 3% of incoming hit damage? what about the impale stacking debuff damage?
ill see what i can do about the glyph. im usually not using taunt, because its just not necessary =) my 2nd specc is off, so im kinda lost here. but ill go and check the AH for the price of these two glyphs and just switch these glyphs for this specific fight.

could someone elaborate the point 3a of Zyffyrs post?

most abilities are effected by Expertise. Until the soft cap Expertise is twice the value of Hit, then equal after that (until you reach the hard cap for the boss in question)

just for clarification: i know the definition/function off expertise (removing parry and dodge from the hittable). i also see the point that expertise is better, in terms of returning a removal off two stats at the same time while hit only removes misses.
but what does he mean by "most abilities are effected by expertse"? its a standard hit table miss/dodge/block/parry for every ability, therefor they are also affected by hit, arent they?

[daj]

i agree, this glyph is not really usefull for me at all, because i never use taunt. a very good idea on the other hand is to put vigilance on one of the snobolds. its probably the best solution. i think its kind of heavy for the healers with vigilance on the other tank (the impale ticking plus 3% of the damage the other tank is taking). but ill keep both of these in mind and discuss it with my raid.

[Xianth]

On Gormok I usually have ~6% hit (that includes heroic presence) and I don't use the glyph but taunt misses are never really a problem: I have vigilance on the offtank and have mocking blow/aoe taunt to grab it back in the off tank on the rare occasion a taunt does miss. Also make sure you taunt with a decent amount of time before the next impale so if you do miss the taunt a new impale isnt applied in the time it takes you to react with mocking blow etc.

[Mookey]

could someone elaborate the point 3a of Zyffyrs post?

Well it's not related to topic, but part of your question was about tanking trend so:

Most important moves: Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate

Each point of expertise before soft cap contributes to removing slight portion of dodge and parry chance, while increasing survivability (via removing parry haste on fights where flag is not up)

So will you put 1 points in stat that will decrease boss's parry and dodge or 1 point in stat that will increase your chance to hit. That's why he said that exp>hit before soft cap.

Please - DO REMEMBER one important thing:
0 hit IS NOT 0% chance to hit.
0 hit is 92% chance to hit and 8% chance to miss
0 hit gear have 83% chance to hit with Taunt and 17% chance to miss

this glyph is not really usefull for me at all, because i never use taunt.

Have in mind that glyphs are not engraved in stone.
You can have stack of taunt glyphs and common replaceable glyphs aswel.
I have like 5-6 of each tanking glyphs in my bags to switch when I need different stuff.

On Glyphs:
Taunt is precious in Thorim hm/Gormok
Vigilance is precious on Hodir
Sunder Armor is great on Yog Sarron P3

Mats for stack of each is like 5-10g, but grab your guild Scribe to make them for you, don't go to AH.

Like you gear for encounter - also glyph for encounter. Have set of "farm glyphs" that are for everyday stuff but for some challenging things... Make sure you shuffle a bit.

[Coeus]

i think its kind of heavy for the healers with vigilance on the other tank (the impale ticking plus 3% of the damage the other tank is taking). but ill keep both of these in mind and discuss it with my raid.

That's not how Vigilance works. It's a 3% damage reduction, not a 3% damage transfer. Only the 10% threat is a transfer.

[daj]

awww ok my bad...thanks for that coeus...

thanks for your post mookey. im completely aware of the fact exp>hit before the soft cap. i wanted clarify if i got it right. or if he wanted to tell me something else.
ok i will ask my scriber for those glyphs and keep a healthy amount of them with me to switch if the situation asks for it.

[drae]

On Expertise vs. Hit.

1. Read Vene's blog - Expertise is always better then Hit

That's the basis the following rambling on TPS production.

The key to understanding why expertise is always better then hit is to understand the combat table for skill in question. The vast majority of warrior threat related abilities can be dodged and parried. The list of tank skills which cannot be dodged or parried is short indeed:
Demoralizing Shout
Thunderclap
Taunt
Shockwave

Therefore Expertise will effect all other abilities.

We all understand that below the soft cap we receive double the benefit of expertise, in that expertise removes both the chance to be dodge, and the chance to be parried.

After the soft cap Expertise will still increase our chances of NOT HITTING the exact same amount as hit will (baring the abilities on the short list up there). For every 1% of expertise after the soft cap we reduce our chance to NOT HIT exactly the same amount as 1% hit does.

This means that for our standard rotation (minus shockwave) expertise (below the hardcap) does exactly the same thing as hit does. PLUS it has the advantage of removing parry gibs. (see theck's work on expertise as avoidance ).

Theck Basically makes the following conclusions:

• Expertise is about 73% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage (first link).
• Expertise is about 69% as effective as dodge rating for reducing the number of incoming attacks that connect (also first link).
• Expertise is actually 2x-4x better than dodge at reducing spike damage intake from boss melee attacks, with the added benefit that it preferentially reduces the largest spikes, thus smoothing out our spike damage by reducing the maximum spike size (second link).
• Each point of expertise rating also gives us about 1/3 of a point of STR.

(Remember Theck's work generally focus' on paladins, his math generally uses paladin co-efficients. While the numbers may not be exact for warriors, the general premise remains the same.)

Since we as warriors tend to take the spikiest damage, it stands to reason that we will benefit greatly from expertise, especially concerning the third bullet in Theck's conclusions.

So basically I NEVER itemize for hit rating, always expertise.

Now that short list up there needs to be examined again.
1. Demoshout - debuff provided by ret paladins, also no cooldown, so I can spam it if the first application is resisted.
2. Thunderclap - debuff provided by... DK's and paladins IIRC. Not terrible if we miss one application.
3. Taunt - WHEN I REALLY NEED TO TAUNT: (gormok) Either vigilance someone for unlimited taunts, or use glyph of taunt.
4. Shockwave - No question the lack of hit hurts the single target rotation here, the only upside is on trash (where SW really shines) you need less hit.

The only other time where Hit is really REQUIRED imho, is Jaraxxus and Auriaya. These are fight's where it is extremely valuable to land a shield base at the right times. Fights like these I suffer the EH loss and equip my hit rating pieces.. The Grim Toll (great TPS when the armor pen proc's too), and conq. badge neck.

TL: DR - Expertise (even after the soft cap) is equal to hit rating for our single target rotation. Expertise has the added value of reducing our total damage taken, and reducing the biggest spikes of damage taken.

Personally I think the general advice of "soft cap expertise, then cap hit" needs to be re-thought.

[felhoof]

Honestly, if you're wiping because of taunt misses you have bigger problems. Even with the 4-rotation cycle, a tank (and your raid) should be able to survive an extra impale rotation. In that situation you'd have 3 missed taunts.

If worse comes to worse, simply swap tanks via bubble. It's that easy.

[drae]

I always taunt right after the previous tank receives his second impale. If it misses I can Commanding Shout, if THAT misses too I will mocking blow... if that misses, well my taunt should be back up (2pc bonus).

Remember if you catch it with commanding or mocking to re-taunt, as mocking and commanding are only fixates and not true taunts.

If worse comes to worse and a tank eats an extra impale making the bleeds un-managable, just bop the tank after it's finally taunted off him.

[Arsaces]

On heroic beasts, we setup a tank rotation of 3 tanks, 2 stacks each. I was the 3rd tank in the rotation. That being besides the point, EVERY time I taunted I Mocking blowed as my next GCD whether or not my taunt missed or not JUST to be safe. If taunt DID miss then it didn't matter, i had mocking blow (that never missed on me if it had i would have AOE taunted) and I could just taunt when it came off CD. I have 2 set t9 so 6 second taunt CD. I do NOT use the glyph of taunt, but I do see it being important I only have 1 tanking spec so I have to balance threat vs avoidance glyphs. At the moment I used SW LS and Blocking, so I really don't have room for it, I just be very careful when I taunt. Also hit food is very nice to have, still gives you 40 stam...

[Karilyn]

For fights like Heroic Gormok it's extremely beneficial to use Glyph of Taunt. Assuming you have a Draenei in your party and a Shadow Priest or Boomkin in the raid, you then only need to find 5% spell hit (roughly 130 hit rating) to be at the cap.

The thing about Misery and Improved Faerie Fire, is unlike Heroic Presence, they specifically say "harmful spells" and "spell attacks" respectively.

Taunt is neither a harmful spell nor an attack.

[Liar]

I am probably gonna jinx it now, but I haven't had a single taunt rest in over 30 heroic beasts attempts. The Druid tank I tank this with didn't have either and neither of us have the glyph or even high hit rating (I have like 100). I did however get resists on Worms so I just figured Gormok cannot resist taunt (like Brutallus back in the day, though he had an extremely tiny chance to resist it).

Am I just being lucky or what?

[drae]

Your lucky I think. I wouldn't push that luck too far