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Thread: Enchanting Quel'Serrar

  1. #1
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    Enchanting Quel'Serrar

    Having picked up some nice gear upgrades recently, I'm now at a stage where I have sufficient Defense Rating to consider picking up the Quel'Serrar. The thing is, I'm not entirely sure in what set I'd use it.

    The proc is certainly survival-focussed but I'd likely be going from Titanguard to Gleaming Quel'Serrar (my guild could easily do Onyxia-25, but I've blown a lot of DKP recently and my 10-man would likely see me paired with a Death Knight meaning Gleaming is more likely just now) which would put me even further behind on Hit Rating. In one sense, the natural choice would therefore be Accuracy but something seems inherently wrong with enchanting an avoidance/survival weapon for threat - I like to play to a piece's strengths rather than cover its weaknesses.

    Besides, the slightly slower swing speed and accompanying higher damage range would go some way to making up for the lost TPS from the Hit reduction anyway.

    So ignoring Hit for a second, the other options would be Blade Ward / Mongoose but I'm unsure about whether a proc-based enchant on a weapon whose strength already relies on a proc is a good idea. I could go for Blood Draining and while I know it doesn't leapfrog Ardent Defender any more, I still get this feeling it'd get lost to overheal or would be insufficient to save me. All that's left is Major Agility, but I'm not convinced that really fits either (Quel'Serrar's proc would be weakened slightly by increasing the DR on Dodge).

    So I'm kind of stumped and I know the answer is pretty much just personal preference here, but I'm a huge advocate of playing to an item's strengths and I guess I'm just not entirely sure which of the available enchants actually does so. I'd welcome any suggestions or discussion from everyone.



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    My gut, given your concerns, is Mongoose.

    I'm not sure if you've seen Theck's new numbers, but here's the big discovery: The change in patch 3.2 that made Seal of Vengeance a physical attack (arguably so it worked off the melee hit table and not the Spellhit table) also allowed it to proc chance-on-hit PPM effects. Paladin uptime for mongoose has gone up SIGNIFICANTLY as a result.

    Mongoose is now one of the best threat enchants, only slightly behind Accuracy, along with obviously bringing some real avoidance/mitigation benefits.

    As to your concern of stacking procs on procs, the more procs you stack the more likely SOME of them are going to be up at any given point of time.

    Mongoose, while not the best avoidance OR threat enchant, now appears to be one of the best if not the best overall itemization value enchants for paladins - similarly to how most of us have switched to Agi/Stam in red slots instead of dodge/stam. Double dipping is HUGELY valuable when you have limited slots.

    goose it up.

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    I enchanted my burnished with Life-draining.
    I also seriously considered accuracy or a weapon chain... but as a warrior I'm not a huge fan of hit rating; I much prefer expertise.

    If mongoose is PPM based, how does the uptime increase? I've never really understood the way procs like that work, I was under the impression it was normalized for a give time frame so the speed of the weapon (or conversely the number of attacks) wouldn't effect the up-time of the buff.

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    Thanks for your response - unfortunately my wonderful employer decided to block access to Maintankadin recently so I've only had limited time to read the latest Theck stuff (I used to read the MATLAB thread religiously). I currently use Mongoose on Titanguard and I do find it very useful there and that should help the transition to a new tanking weapon a bit easier if I'm already familiar with the proc rate etc.

    On a seperate note (and again this is probably something I could look at Theck's work for if I only I could see the bloody thing), given that SoV damage isn't normalised, the DPS/TPS from a 2.0 weapon should be higher than a 1.6 one with the same base DPS but does anyone have a rough estimate of how much of an increase it represents? If you know how this compares to the loss of 29 Hit Rating whilst under the hit cap then even better
    Last edited by Mert; 10-02-2009 at 07:02 AM.



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    Quote Originally Posted by drae View Post
    If mongoose is PPM based, how does the uptime increase? I've never really understood the way procs like that work, I was under the impression it was normalized for a give time frame so the speed of the weapon (or conversely the number of attacks) wouldn't effect the up-time of the buff.
    Mongoose doesn't have an internal cooldown but it wasn't at 100% uptime either. The great thing about it is that if it re-procs while the buff is up it will refresh the duration of it (15 seconds). The more swings or attacks from which it can proc you can get in, the more chance you have of sustaining it. It works a little like Divine Plea if you went crazy and only put one point into Guarded by the Light or something

    Having it proc from SoV applications gives us effectively two chances to proc for every one swing so I'd expect its uptime to have gone up by a great margin, especially if you get lucky and can juggle the buff refresh a few times.



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    I understand how the "extra" SoV attack can proc the enchants effect; however AFAIK the proc is based on a Proc Per Minute system. As I understand it, if you attack 60 times with a 1s swing or 20 times with a 3s swing, you still end up with same buff up-time.

    I suppose another way to word the question, if I simply Melee a target, (white damage only) will I have the same up-time as if I was spamming devastate and melee'ing? My understanding (and I'm not saying I'm right) is the up-time on the buff would be the same - regardless of the fact there where twice as many opportunities for the enchant to proc.

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    I read something on EJ a while back about someone testing it and they found that it can and did proc on two consecutive white swings, one white swing and the proceeding special or any number of combinations that suggest Mongoose isn't normalised into a strict PPM table. They could be wrong, the information could be out-of-date or any number of things and I guess it's possible that it does use weapon speed as some kind of modifier to the proc chance but I've not personally seen anything to suggest it.

    I've always simply used the term "PPM" to be a measure of its proc rate rather than an in-built balancing mechanism. I could (and probably am) wrong here though, it's not a subject I know a lot about really.



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    It's my understanding that PPM just uses the weapon's speed to determine the % chance to proc. Then all attacks get that % chance to trigger the effect.

    So yellow attacks don't have an effect on determining the PPM % but they can proc the effect.

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    My feeling on Blood Draining is that since it heals for ~2k, it's a straight 2k larger health pools, assuming the boss doesn't jump over the 35% mark. Imagine just adding a straight 2000 hp to your current gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    It's my understanding that PPM just uses the weapon's speed to determine the % chance to proc. Then all attacks get that % chance to trigger the effect.

    So yellow attacks don't have an effect on determining the PPM % but they can proc the effect.
    However, Haste does affect PPM, as it reduces the effective swing timer. You get more actual swings per minute, thus you can get additional procs. This (amusingly) makes the Windfury/Imp Icy Talons (20% haste) worth noting in any Mongoose uptime tests. Also, Sanctified Retribution is 3% haste, regardless of the Retadin's aura. Knowing whether or not those buffs were present (and if you can have consistent access to them) would be something to consider in valuing Mongoose.

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    Quel'Serrar is an EHP weapon, straight up. From what I've seen the threat from Quel isn't that far off of Last Laugh or something abusrd like that, at least for warriors. If you're looking for a threat weapon look else where, though idk how well the 2.0 speed scaling works for pallies.

    The major part of Quel, and what makes it better than any other weapon out there at the moment, is the armor portion of its proc. The uptime is around 80%, and for pure physical fights 1500 armor is roughly 5kEHP. Quel should be used for your EHP weapon and thusly you should enchant it with Blood Draining, not mongoose. EHP relies on sets that guarentee additional survival, blood draining is the only enchant that always adds to survival, and gives you the extra HPs automatically when you need it most, especially with AD it rocks for paladins. Mongoose relies not just on the chance that it might be up when you need it for the armor, but also that the small amount of dodge that it has actually makes you dodge an attack when it does happen to be up. Blood draining all the way.

    For threat if the PPM increase for pallies is true, then sure I'd say mongoose, though on a less reasonable yet more philosophical level it always seems odd to me to use a BC enchant on a BiS WotLK weapon. Blizz sucks =P
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    Personally i used BLadeward on my 25 man quel because in my gear i dont get much avoidance from mongoose anymore so i went wirth Blade and switched my spec around to up the proc rate and it has worked great i can get it to 5 procs pretty easy 29% dodge AND 29% parry with a 5 proc but and i've noticed bladeward proc alot more then i remember

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    Quote Originally Posted by Padinbann View Post
    Personally i used BLadeward on my 25 man quel because in my gear i dont get much avoidance from mongoose anymore so i went wirth Blade and switched my spec around to up the proc rate and it has worked great i can get it to 5 procs pretty easy 29% dodge AND 29% parry with a 5 proc but and i've noticed bladeward proc alot more then i remember
    It still has the issue of the damage component wiping the avoidance buff though doesn't it? That's the main reason I've steered clear so far.



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    From personal experience bladward is dung, procs around 5-10 times over the course of a fight.
    And im gonna go ahead and call the guy that claims he can get it up to 5 procs easy an big fat liar. And if you are not, show us a combat logg to prove it.

    Edit went over combat loggs and rounded up the proc number from 5-10
    Last edited by Dozer.V2; 10-03-2009 at 02:19 AM.

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    what kind of fights are u doing to get a proc rate of that low? And yes the buff gets killed if you parry but so? i get roughly 3% avoidance per stack and i have noticed a difference in uptime for it everytime i look at my buff bar its there and no i dont have a combat log of it getting to 5 saved but it did get to it in a 5 man ToC and i was sitting at 29% dodge and 29% parry i personally think it works best for tanks tha have a low parry so it doesnt get knocked off so easily. And dont call me a liar Just cause i have gotten it to 5 stacks a few time since having it and i cant give u a combat log of it so i've seen it and if it is dung to u then why are you using it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dozer.V2 View Post
    From personal experience bladward is dung, procs around 5-10 times over the course of a fight.
    And im gonna go ahead and call the guy that claims he can get it up to 5 procs easy an big fat liar. And if you are not, show us a combat logg to prove it.

    Edit went over combat loggs and rounded up the proc number from 5-10
    There's another thread around here somewhere where someone did some very extensive theorycraft and combat log analysis and he came to the conclusion that at 80 bladeward provides more avoidance than mongoose. However that doesn't account for added benefits of crit and armor, but it ends up coming down to personal preference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padinbann View Post
    what kind of fights are u doing to get a proc rate of that low? And yes the buff gets killed if you parry but so? i get roughly 3% avoidance per stack and i have noticed a difference in uptime for it everytime i look at my buff bar its there and no i dont have a combat log of it getting to 5 saved but it did get to it in a 5 man ToC and i was sitting at 29% dodge and 29% parry i personally think it works best for tanks tha have a low parry so it doesnt get knocked off so easily. And dont call me a liar Just cause i have gotten it to 5 stacks a few time since having it and i cant give u a combat log of it so i've seen it and if it is dung to u then why are you using it?
    TOC 25 HM's
    You said 5 stacks easy, not a few times.
    Im to cheap and lazy to replace it.

    O and for the record im not advocating the use of mongoose over bladeward im just stating that the proc rate is really bad.

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    Last edited by Dozer.V2; 10-05-2009 at 03:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    For threat if the PPM increase for pallies is true, then sure I'd say mongoose, though on a less reasonable yet more philosophical level it always seems odd to me to use a BC enchant on a BiS WotLK weapon. Blizz sucks =P
    While I agree with you that it's retarded that we're seriously using a TBC enchant (paladins were also using TBC Potency for most of the Tier 7 content as the best threat enchant), Quel'serrar is in no way best in slot. Even the 245 is significantly behind any other 245 level tanking weapon for threat because of the lack of strength, not to mention the 258. Yes these are hard to get, but BiS is a term that gets thrown around too much.

    As for Bladeward, I know people love trusting their personal observations, but the math really doesn't lie. With SoV proccing Mongoose, it's a significantly better avoidance AND threat enchant than bladeward for paladins. Warriors at least hypothetically get a rage boost from parrying because of the haste, so I can't speak to the figures there, but it's really a terrible choice for a paladin. Further, research over at EJ is showing pretty strongly that Mongoose is -not- normalized by haste as has been suggested in this topic, meaning that haste is going to increase your uptime. Bladeward is believed to be a 1 PPM enchant like almost all of the other weapon procs. We're going to assume, since we'll be fair even though we have no evidence to support this, that bladeward also benefits from haste like goose. That puts bladeward's proc chance under 3% using a 1.6 speed weapon. Let's call it 3% to be generous, again.

    The odds of getting a 5stack on a boss are stunningly stunningly low. Like, virtually impossibly low. Do some math - even the worst of tanking gear is going to have over 20% parry rate. Even ignoring the bladeward buff, which is going to greatly DECREASE your chance of stacking it up because it consumes with every parry, that's a .2 chance of parrying every hit. Over a 30 second window, you're going to get attacked more than 10 times. To go 10 swings without a parry is around a 10% chance - up that to 12-13 swings and you're down around 5-6% even given that I"m using generous parry figures and ignoring the huge parry buff bladeward gives. Meanwhile, in that 30 seconds, with a 3% proc rate and an effective attacks per second with the new SoV applications of 1.8 (see: Theck's threat math at maintankadin) the expected number of bladeward procs is still less than TWO in that window. And you're talking about less than two procs.... without parrying. You'd have to go 150% outside of the expected return on that figure, AND never parry even with the massively improved parry chance, AND ignore the fact that I've generously buffed all of these numbers in Bladeward's favor just to show you how stupendously low the odds of getting a 5 stack up on a boss that is swinging at you are.

    TL;DR: I'm not calling you a liar, because I'm sure you believe what you're saying. I'm just saying for real world purposes, the suggestion you're making is incorrect. Mongoose is more threat AND avoidance for a paladin, primarily because it's not consumed when it's used and it INCREASES its own uptime. Bladeward proccing REDUCES its own chance to stay up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zothor View Post
    TL;DR: I'm not calling you a liar, because I'm sure you believe what you're saying. I'm just saying for real world purposes, the suggestion you're making is incorrect. Mongoose is more threat AND avoidance for a paladin, primarily because it's not consumed when it's used and it INCREASES its own uptime. Bladeward proccing REDUCES its own chance to stay up.
    And what I'm saying is there's a thread out there that I read on this subject that has extensive math and log parses of bladeward and it's coming out as more avoidance than mongoose. Bladeward is a 1.2PPM like every other WotLK Enchant, and Mongoose is 1PPM. However, like I said, I don't know about its effects on SoV, I'm a warrior, not a paladin, so maybe you're right with new SoV Mongoose is better.

    Also: I said Quel was BiS for Physical EHP, not threat. In fact I mentioned it's not even close to BiS for threat. Quel's proc and significant uptime make it just absurdly good for EHP.

    Edit: I just re-read my post you quoted and I didn't even talk about bladewarding for this. I was specifically saying this was an EHP weapon and a bad threat weapon so put blood draining on it.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 10-05-2009 at 09:01 AM.
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