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Thread: Imp Mangle vs. MS

  1. #1
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    Imp Mangle vs. MS

    I wanted to get some opinions on my current spec and possible switch.

    I am currently running this spec:

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I like it because I am self-sufficient. I provide my own buffs/debuffs and I have all the necessary tools to tank. However, there are 2 things that bug me about it.

    1.) I have 2 throw-away points spent in 'Shredding Attacks' that I have no pointedly better use for. The other option would be for 'King of the Jungle' for some burst threat when the armor penalty won't hurt me. Nothing jumps out so I dumped them somewhere.

    2.) I would really love to have 'Master Shapeshifter'. One of the things I enjoy about my druid is that I do a decent amount of damage while tanking, but I've never really been able to fit this into my spec. The reason primarily being that I do not like relying on a warrior to TC for the attack speed debuff. While I do usually MT with a warrior OT, I have an anal need to be self-sufficient. I like to bring the maximum number of tools that I can.

    So, my thought now shifts to taking out 'Improved Mangle' (and subsequently 'Shredding Attacks') and putting those 5 points towards MS. This would allow me to pick up the flat damage increase, but will obviously drop my damage contribution from Mangle significantly (at least that is my understanding). This would also simplify the rotation, allowing the Mangle and FFF cooldowns to (almost, considering the GCD difference) match up. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    Thoughts? 4% more overall damage for 1.5 sec longer CD on the highest threat-per-GCD ability?

    I'd love some feedback here.

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    Personally, I would go for King of the Jungle in that first spec over Shredding Attacks, but both are indeed rather meh.

    If you are MTing most of the time as you say you do, then there is no problem going for the MS spec. I would like to give you a new question to ponder on though: If you're keen on bringing all the tools, why not take up Feral Aggression for the Demo Roar buff?

  3. #3
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    Unless they've changed it, Master Shapeshifter is multiplicative with the 10% from Naturalist so it's effectively a 4.4% damage increase (The display still shows x114% since they don't show decimals in that window, this is easily verified)

    iirc Master Shapeshifter is the highest boost to damage/threat over Imp Mangle as Maul is the #1 source of both. I ran a bunch of tests (keep in mind this was back in Naxx, but I would think better gear would only add to the advantage of Master Shapeshifter) and the conclusion I gathered was that: Improved Mangle + Master Shapeshifter > Master Shapeshifter only > Improved Mangle only.

    Since you prefer having Infected Wounds, dropping Improved Mangle would be the 'next best thing'. Shredding Attacks is pretty lackluster for tanking, so dumping that is fine.
    Last edited by tuffmuffin; 10-02-2009 at 10:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuffmuffin View Post
    Unless they've changed it, Master Shapeshifter is multiplicative with the 10% from Naturalist so it's technically a 4.4% damage increase (The display still shows x114% since they don't show decimals in that window, this is easily verified)
    Nooooo, the 4.4% you're talking about is added to the 110% you already have in either case. Therefor it's exactly 4% more than what you had before. You're right about the tooltip though, but saying MC is 4.4% is incorrect, it's 4% more than what you have without it, for a total cost of 5 talent points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Nooooo, the 4.4% you're talking about is added to the 110% you already have in either case. Therefor it's exactly 4% more than what you had before. You're right about the tooltip though, but saying MC is 4.4% is incorrect, it's 4% more than what you have without it, for a total cost of 5 talent points.
    1.00 (Normal) x 1.10 (Naturalist) x 1.04 (Master Shapeshifter) is what I was saying. Multiplicitive.
    If the damage increases were additive it would only be 114% (1.00 + 0.10 + 0.04), not 114.4% (1.00 x 1.10 x 1.04)

    Considering EVERY feral Druid will have Naturalist, Master Shapeshifter is effectively 4.4% damage due to the way the damage increases work.
    Go learn additive vs. multiplicitive so I don't need to explain it again.
    Last edited by tuffmuffin; 10-01-2009 at 06:31 PM.
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    Considering every Druid already has Naturalist, you start at x110% and multiply that with 104%.

    If MC was a 4.4% increase, you would get 110%x104.4%, for a total of 114.84%.

    I understand what you're trying to say in the way that MC adds 4.4% of your BASE damage extra, but as you said, everybody should have Naturalist already, so the base you should be using to calculate the value of MC would then be 110%, and adding 4% extra from MC boosts that number to 114.4%

    But if you say 4.4%, you're ADDING it to the Naturalist bonus, not multiplying it.
    Naturalist = 10% bonus
    MC = 4% bonus
    Both = 14.4% bonus
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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    Imp mangle is better per talent point than MS, but MS is better than SA + imp mangle - at least for threat and damage. MS is also much better when dealing with adds due to giving swipe a boost.

    Imp mangle has a side benefit of increasing your uptime on idol of the corruptor procs, but this effect is very minor.

    Really, it depends on what you want. I'd personally always take MS over imp mangle, but I tend to take FA over both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Considering every Druid already has Naturalist, you start at x110% andmultiply that with 104%.

    If MC was a 4.4% increase, you would get 110%x104.4%, for a total of 114.84%.

    I understand what you're trying to say in the way that MC adds 4.4% of your BASE damage extra, but as you said, everybody should have Naturalist already, so the base you should be using to calculate the value of MC would then be 110%, and adding 4% extra from MC boosts that number to 114.4%

    But if you say 4.4%, you're ADDING it to the Naturalist bonus, not multiplying it.
    Naturalist = 10% bonus
    MC = 4% bonus
    Both = 14.4% bonus
    Let's back this train up a second. My point was that the damage bonuses from Naturalist and Master Shapeshifter were multiplicitive. This is 100% correct (you even said that in your first sentence), and something you still decide to argue with me about just because of how I worded it.

    When you're talking about damage increases, your perspective should be your base damage, which mine was (you even acknowledged that much). In that regard, Master Shapeshifter is effectively a 4.4% damage increase. Learn that word I underlined, as that was the key word in making that statement. I never said Master Shapeshifter was 4.4%, if I had then yes, it would mean 114.84%, and it would effectively be a 4.84% damage increase.

    The fun thing about multiplication is that it's foundation is addition, this is learned in elementary school. This means you can use them interchangeably and transfer between them if you want (and know how). (1.10 x 1.04 = 1.144) is the multiplication (again, used in your first sentence). That means that the 4% increase is equal to 4.4% of the total damage. Fair?

    Another way to put it, this time with addition. (1.00 + 0.10 + (1.00 x 0.04) + (0.10 x 0.04) = 1.1 + 0.04 + 0.004 = 1.144). A simpler way to write this: (1.10 +((1.00 + 0.10) x 0.04), or simpler still; (1.10 + (1.10 x 0.04)) which translates into (1.10 + 0.044 = 1.144) which should look familiar to you from your last few lines. Still 4.4% of the total damage. Still fair?

    I've just established that the 4% increase from Master Shapeshifter is effectively a 4.4% upgrade over your base damage. This means (1.00 + 0.10 + 0.044), and this is correct. This is proven true by the fact that every Feral will have that 10% from Naturalist. Going back to the second iteration of my maths shows this. It also shows that the damage bonuses are indeed multiplicitive, which is what I was saying in the first place.
    Have I explained it well enough this time around?
    Last edited by tuffmuffin; 10-02-2009 at 11:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Imp mangle is better per talent point than MS, but MS is better than SA + imp mangle - at least for threat and damage. MS is also much better when dealing with adds due to giving swipe a boost.
    I'd be interested in seeing some actual numbers (simulation or combat logs). In my hybrid bear/cat spec, I have room for imp mangle or SA, but not both, and I generally choose SA as it's slightly better than Imp Mangle. The only advantage to Imp Mangle over SA is the few times you are forced to be in front of a boss for large parts of the fight, like Thaddeus or ToC10 Champions). SA should have no noticeable effect in bear form, as most times you should be in near infinite rage situations due to swipe crits or heavy incoming damage.

    Imp mangle has a side benefit of increasing your uptime on idol of the corruptor procs, but this effect is very minor.

    Really, it depends on what you want. I'd personally always take MS over imp mangle, but I tend to take FA over both.
    The idol is created such that vanilla mangle ensures near 100% uptime without speccing into ImpM. Having a lower CD means you don't have to be as careful with your idol, you can work it into your rotation earlier and not have the agi fall off accidentally if you get sloppy.

    Yeah, FA is pretty sweet, more for bears unless you have a deadly precise cat rotation that allows alot of Bites, but like MS it's a big investment (5 points) as compared to 2 of SA or 3 of ImpM. The tree is pretty big as is.

  10. #10
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    Insahnity, none of what I said applies in any way, shape or form to cat DPS. This discussion was about bear threat, not cat DPS. SA is essentially required for good cat DPS; imp mangle is not. If you need to do dps in your bear spec, you must take it.

    Idol of Corruptor doesn't have 100% uptime, sadly, even with 100% hits on mangle.

    FA is for bears only. Again, this discussion was about what was better for threat for bears, I thought, and it was on Tankspot in the tank theory section. FA isn't bad for cats, mind you - but you need to have a high crit rate before it really becomes worthwhile.

    Recently I've read a couple reports on removing ferocity completely and going with FA instead, and using those 5 points on MS. That would probably be better in raid situations since you're never at the point where you need rage anyway, but it would likely hurt in heroics and possibly when OTing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Insahnity, none of what I said applies in any way, shape or form to cat DPS. This discussion was about bear threat, not cat DPS. SA is essentially required for good cat DPS; imp mangle is not. If you need to do dps in your bear spec, you must take it.
    Most of us are tanks here, but a few us skirt the lines (talking about fury/arms, healing, or in my case, switching from OT bear to cat to help burn down things within timers). As such, I consider myself a bear who occasionally meows within a raid setting (as appropriate), and my spec and gemming/gearing reflects this. I just keep an open mind.

    Check out the closed post Tankspot is Losing It's Appeal.. , Cider's post on
    09-28-2009, 12:12 PM, which welcomes DPS of tank classes. If da head chief says it is OK, I'm sticking to it.

    Idol of Corruptor doesn't have 100% uptime, sadly, even with 100% hits on mangle.
    I fail to see this. Mangle has a 6 sec CD (less 1.5s with ImpM) and the idol provides Agi for 12 seconds. So while I agree it is great for DPS, you have to have some serious lag or hit deficiencies to not keep it 100% of the time even without speccing ImpM.

    FA is for bears only. Again, this discussion was about what was better for threat for bears, I thought, and it was on Tankspot in the tank theory section. FA isn't bad for cats, mind you - but you need to have a high crit rate before it really becomes worthwhile.
    <Bearing in mind we don't discriminate against bears who occasionaly DPS>
    I agree about it being worthwhile in limited circumstances, but for different reasons. Rotation should be either swiping trash or shred+bleeding bosses to death. You might see greater mileage using bite on an elite-heavy instances that can be killed via bite with the first 5 CP (I can't think of one that qualifies, possibly heroics when well geared).

    Recently I've read a couple reports on removing ferocity completely and going with FA instead, and using those 5 points on MS. That would probably be better in raid situations since you're never at the point where you need rage anyway, but it would likely hurt in heroics and possibly when OTing.
    I'd buy that on a pure bear spec, if you didn't macro !Maul with your abilities, much like !Heroic Strike is macroed by some to every #$@% warrior ability. The opening could be tricky but doable, based on having Furor+Enrage giving you 39-40 rage (can have 1 rage decay between buttons due to lag), and spending on charge (5), Mangle (20), Maul queue(15 instead of 10). You don't have 5 sunders or FFF up to do huge damage from a rage on hit perspective. It may mean your follow up move may needs to wait a few seconds to ensure you have the rage for it, forcing FFF ahead in priority to compensate, or jungling different moves like swipe (20) vs demo roar (10).
    Last edited by Insahnity; 10-02-2009 at 01:10 PM.

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    I fail to see this. Mangle has a 6 sec CD (less 1.5s with ImpM) and the idol provides Agi for 12 seconds. So while I agree it is great for DPS, you have to have some serious lag or hit deficiencies to not keep it 100% of the time even without speccing ImpM.
    It doesn't proc on every mangle. It has about an 85% chance on mangle hit. This is different than the old Idol of Terror proc. While it doesn't happen often, you can get unlucky. Check your logs if you don't believe me.

    <Bearing in mind we don't discriminate against bears who occasionaly DPS>
    I agree about it being worthwhile in limited circumstances, but for different reasons. Rotation should be either swiping trash or shred+bleeding bosses to death. You might see greater mileage using bite on an elite-heavy instances that can be killed via bite with the first 5 CP (I can't think of one that qualifies, possibly heroics when well geared).
    I don't discriminate - it's just offtopic, and you calling me to task on something that wasn't what I was talking about was silly.

    In any case, while FB isn't your highest priority it will come up if you have a good crit rate. Basically, any time both rip and SR are at 10+ seconds it is almost certainly a good thing to FB when you have 5 CP. It's also very good in certain situations where burst is important, such as on XT's heart and Valkyr shields and Icehowl stuns. If maximal damage is your goal as a cat, FA is a good pick over things like imp LotP and SI. It's not worth it enough for me, but it is done by others.

    I'd buy that on a pure bear spec, if you didn't macro !Maul with your abilities, much like !Heroic Strike is macroed by some to every #$@% warrior ability. The opening could be tricky but doable, based on having Furor+Enrage giving you 39-40 rage (can have 1 rage decay between buttons due to lag), and spending on charge (5), Mangle (20), Maul queue(15 instead of 10). You don't have 5 sunders or FFF up to do huge damage from a rage on hit perspective. It may mean your follow up move may needs to wait a few seconds to ensure you have the rage for it, forcing FFF ahead in priority to compensate, or jungling different moves like swipe (20) vs demo roar (10).
    You could macro maul as well. It wouldn't be that bad; you won't queue the maul up until your first swipe, and hopefully by then you'd have a couple crits to feed your rage. You wouldn't be getting rage back on your first hit anyway if you queued maul, so that would not matter. And I usually open with FFF->charge anyway. It's rare that you have to charge and then do FFF.

    Like I said, it's a possibility some have mentioned with success. I doubt it'll be that great given that I do a lot of heroic runs too, and high-cost swipes could hurt a lot. But for pure MT raiding I would imagine that it would be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    It doesn't proc on every mangle. It has about an 85% chance on mangle hit. This is different than the old Idol of Terror proc. While it doesn't happen often, you can get unlucky. Check your logs if you don't believe me.
    Yeah, I knew about that change. Using the figure of 85%, the chances of you failing to proc the idol within the 12 seconds given that you get two mangles with untalented is a little over 2%. Adding Imp Mangle means your will lose about 1.5s of uptime if you hit that 2% (since you can't squeeze a 3rd mangle in even with ImpM) instead of 6s, because I'm assuming you agree that a 0.3% chance of 3 straight failed procs is reasonably insignificant.

    I don't discriminate - it's just offtopic, and you calling me to task on something that wasn't what I was talking about was silly.
    I just brought it up because you jumped on my comments regarding my hybrid spec first. It was a different perspective, but you assumed it to be a pure bear discussion, which isn't necessarily the spirit of this forum. I'm just advocating an open discussion, and it certainly isn't off-topic with the number of ferals who have a resto dualspec, and make the bear/cat compromise work with their talent choices.

    In any case, while FB isn't your highest priority it will come up if you have a good crit rate. Basically, any time both rip and SR are at 10+ seconds it is almost certainly a good thing to FB when you have 5 CP. It's also very good in certain situations where burst is important, such as on XT's heart and Valkyr shields and Icehowl stuns. If maximal damage is your goal as a cat, FA is a good pick over things like imp LotP and SI. It's not worth it enough for me, but it is done by others.
    I think the high crit rate is needed not only for raw DPS, but for the CP generation. With a low crit rate, you just don't generate enough double CP to be fast enough in your rotation before you are forced to priortize something else (refreshing savage road, Rip, etc.). My crit rate is still too low as a cat, so I just can't weave in many bites without sacrificing something more important, but an end game cat should be able to pull it off at a significant.

    You could macro maul as well. It wouldn't be that bad; you won't queue the maul up until your first swipe, and hopefully by then you'd have a couple crits to feed your rage. You wouldn't be getting rage back on your first hit anyway if you queued maul, so that would not matter. And I usually open with FFF->charge anyway. It's rare that you have to charge and then do FFF.

    Like I said, it's a possibility some have mentioned with success. I doubt it'll be that great given that I do a lot of heroic runs too, and high-cost swipes could hurt a lot. But for pure MT raiding I would imagine that it would be fine.
    Agreed. Assuming a MT of a endgame raid, I was just thinking along the lines of a single target boss, where swipe moves down in priority as you are only swiping when everything else is on CD. There's no multiple targets to fill the Rage mug on swipe crits, and if your avoidance is good and the boss is slow swinging, the boss won't land enough damage to generate rage that way on the first few seconds following the pull. It's at that stage you are using your high rage-long CD abilities to get them up ASAP, slows that down abit. I think it is doable, but it's just a bit risky. As is, I already hate the RNG on 3/5 furor, but I am not going to resume that argument here.

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