Well my guild has started 25 man ToC heroic mode and as the best geared tank , almost full 245 I am the hardest to keep alive, During a wipe in phase 1 our new pala tank with much less gear than me could hold 5 stacks and not die, if i reach 3 stacks im simply to hard to heal,
We have a DK tank with similar gear and he is also very easy to keep alive compared to me, im timing shield block and trinkets according to impale hits as well as CDs when its my next time to tank,
Not really sure why this is so, we have all debuffs on boss and 2 great pala healers + one with mace for bubbles + disc priest. Not sure if its me or the class
It seems to be a class issue. We've found warriors to be the weakest tanks on heroic beasts because of long cooldowns and a lack of passive damage reduction abilities on big hits. All the bosses in the heroic beasts encounter have abilities that can instagib well geared tanks, and warriors have no passive abilities to mitigate this.
Originally Posted by Sythas
Gormokk can line up impales with melees, sometimes with impale ticks as well, leading to at least 30k + 25k more or less instantaneously (seen them within 1/100th of a second in recount).
Dreadscale, especially when enraged can do a burning bite + melee for around 30k each and both can hit at the exact same time (again within 1/100th of a second on recount)
The yeti's ferocious butt can also time up with his melee for around 60k combined.
So there are just too many abilities that can kill warriors easier than any other class to feel safe with a warrior tank on that fight. It's possible with perfect CD usage between healers and tanks, but the potential gibs happen so often it's just a headache. Avoid using warrior tanks on this fight if possible, and try to handle it with just two tanks would be my suggestion.
Originally Posted by tedfor
My guild is planning our first foray into Heroic Beasts 10 tonight, and I'm supposed to be main tanking. I'm a warrior, and I'm afraid my health pool is way too small, at about 46k buffed. I'm totally frightened now.
Have you considered that there are more people to heal you once the warrior is dead? The pally can bubble off his debuffs...warriors are stuck with them.
If there is a threat problem the warrior just stinks. If you are in equal gear and not rolling cd's and the warriors are dying....it is a healing problem. They need to look at what they are doing and change their style of healing.
When I first got to Sapphiron 25 back in January, the pally who was healing could not seem to keep me up....we switched to a DK...bam killed him first try. The asshat was trying to FoL me through 15k breaths and 10k melee swings back to back...no holy shock...not nothing. BUT the DK was healed through everything very easily(lots of CD's back then)....was it my fault....nope. Different tanks sometimes take different healing styles. We got another healer....
You should be ok if your healers know their stuff. The faster your dps can end that phase of the fight, the better. I definitely feel pretty squishy on that fight, but my healers generally do a good job of keeping me alive.
Originally Posted by Reev
10m heroic , is not the issue, we got tribute to mad skill very easy10m and only missed 50 by one attempt.
I'd love to see blizzard fix this, I don't wanna be left on the side lines because my class is too poor to with hold the dmg output of this boss, There is little else I can do but time shield block and trinkets and hold second time I tank him my shield wall and last stand + healer CD is enough, true to heroic mode this boss is really intensive. Worms we have less issue with tank deaths.
They seem to want block to be more useful but yet it is still a poor stat, maybe they will fix this, maybe not
Originally Posted by Sythas
The issue I have with the encounter is that I can't reliably predict which hit will kill me. WTB ardent defender.
OK, so we did go into H ToC 10 tonight, and you were right. It's not as bad as it was sounding. We were able to get to the worms with Gormok dead and pick them up reasonably well. We were dying shortly thereafter to people becoming accustomed to the spits actually doing real damage, but we made good progress. For our first real attempts at hard modes, it was fun, and not too painful.
i was having the same problem. but having dbm and seeing the timer on the impales helped me alot in timing my cds
I can be pretty sure it's not healers simply being bad (partly because a decent chunk of the time, I'm on of the healers as I run a disc priest and resto sham in addition to my tanking DK). I check recount every now and again, and it's not a matter of Flash of Fail pallies or druids that can't find their nourish key.
Originally Posted by Dormungus
Regardless, given that I have a rotating cast of tanks and healers, and there's a distinct pattern to when the problems occur (when there's a warrior tank), and that is independent of what my healing corps looks like (in guild, pug raid, direct healers, hot'ers, etc.). And since it's easier to replace one tank than 3-4 healers, the incentive at the moment is to simply stop taking warrior tanks (something I'd prefer to avoid) unless I can figure out how to fix my regular ones.
Crazy, crazy talk here. Warriors are pretty amazing during this entire encounter. They just need to be smart warriors.
Originally Posted by tedfor
As a warrior I single tanked Catlady and her two kittys in 10 man, with a nice tree and priest. Pally tank DC'd as we pulled.... (My wowheroes gear score at the time was 2410)
No issues at all. CD rotation is very important for us Warriors, not to mention a group of healers who are very familiar with the inbound dmg on a warrior. But all of this has been said.
I like to have a rogue use tricks on me for those insta-dps type pulls, and never have a threat issue. Hell, i have wiped groups several times because the other tank could not taunt Gormock off of me. (bad choice on my part for a pug tank)
I have never had an issue taunting off other tanks no mater the class.
One thing most folks might be missing here is the "Miss" of the warriors swing. That instantly give the MOB/Boss a haste buff to his swing timer, and the warriro gets smashed twice as much. If your tank is missing a lot that could simply be the issue.
Make sure your warriro is near 8% hit and 26% Exp, or misses may be what is killing him/her off real fast. Check Dmg done in recount and see if his melee swing has any Misses.
Miss does not cause hasting. Parries cause hasting, and not on all bosses. Also, I should hope you have no trouble taunting, as taunting is not gear dependent except inasmuch as your taunt "hits" or resists.
Originally Posted by JayM
warrior tanks are fine, you just need the right players imo. Sure on heroic gormack i take more damage it seems than my pally MT. But my healers work around it, and the pally tank hand of prot. me at the end when i have 4 stacks on. In ToC, your second tank should be just as good as the other. I am in no way going in there looking for huge threat but more survival. Yes, the dps is so tight you need every second, but if it takes me 2 sec to build a good lead then its guna have to fly.For ToGC i glyph shield wall(on 2 min cd now) i glyph last stand(on 2 min cd now) and every 40 sec i use my shield block. 1,2,3 impales is heavy on heals, so i dont pop my last stand and shield wall til 2 and 3 impale. Indestructable pots on 4th just incase. The only thing i see as paladins being superb is having just better cooldowns to pop + ardent defender.
As for threat i have no issues altho if someone else it may be due to their gear + priority to use their main threat abilities/talents. Warriors are well built and i disagree w/ anyone who wants to say they are broken.
Also, if you are pugging ToC groups then thats what you are going to get. Gear is ... well, easy to get these days. People that know how to tank properly is another story.
I'm one of the guilty warriors this thread is discussing and I'm wondering what my deal is.
I tanked a lot pre bc and understand the basics of warrior tanking. I know what abilities do what and I rarely die before all of my CDs are blown. My defense is at 540, hp at 27k, and have never had troubles while my well-geared resto druid friend is healing. It's when I pug that I start having troubles, mostly when I grudgingly say I'll tank H ToC. I'm staying away from ToC because I feel undergeared against the last boss. Is my gear just not good enough for H ToC? Is it bare minimum for other heroics? Or should I flat out stop pugging because people suck? HALP!
armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory
I hope to god you're talking about the 5 man heroic and not the raid. If you're attempting the raid, yes you are HORRIBLY undergeared for it. I'd say you need to tack on at least another 6k health and a bit more avoidance in order to tank the raid. If you're having trouble in the 5 man, unless you're doing something horribly wrong in there, I'd say either your healers aren't putting the heals on you fast enough or dps standing in the poison, standing next to the ghouls when they explode, and so on. There's quite a few ways for dps or healers to royally screw things up in that instance even if the tank is perfect.
Originally Posted by djbell
We've just done Mad skill-10. Me as warrior tank along with a pala tank. We also have done Algalon 10. I've had extensive discussions with the healer team to find out which tank is the best for which fight (i'm also the tank role captain). gearwise i have slightly better gear than the pally but the differences are extremely small - nearly identical health, armor, avoidance & blockvalue.
The healers replied that on Algalon the pala tank was noticably (but just noticably, not enough to make any major difference) easier to heal than me. That follows as Algalon is a fast hitter where the palatank block mechanic shines. On everything else, including Gormok, the healers cant notice any difference in our survival.
Threatwise, before the RF nerf, there was no way i could keep up with paladin threat. After the nerf, the threat levels seem similar, with a slight bias towards the paladin but nothing to make a case out of.
As to how/why your warrior tank is failing, i'm guessing several things:
a) As has been said, warriors need to take care of more stuff. He should be popping rage and shieldblock just prior to the pull. He should be timing his enraged regens properly, he should be keeping up demo shout & tclap regularly - all those in addition to his normal threat moves. Maybe he's timing them wrong.
b) You have a lazy/crap tank. The aggro problems you mentioned forces me into thinking this. When i said i can keep up with the pala in threat, i can only do that by maximally following every cooldown to the milisecond. That's 8 different cooldowns. You can easily tell how good he's at what he's doing by looking at his damage. If i'm slacking, my dps as tank idles at around 1800. If i'm working my ass off, slicing miliseconds to get that extra move in, i can hit 2400+ dps. Same gear, same raid, same buffs.
c) Healer approach. Dont blame your warrior alone. This is something i've had to deal with time & again. Healers get used to healing a tank that is easy to heal. Then comes along another encounter, healers have grown lax, the first tank dies, the second one takes over, and the healers break their backs keeping the 2nd one alive. It wasnt because the 1st tank was bad, it's because the healers didnt react. And you'd think they learn, right? no, every week, the same thing happens, pull after pull. It took a lot of combatlog parsing & compilation of evidance to get the healer team to admit to it btw, so dont expect to pinpoint this easily.
Advice: Somebody mentioned Argent Defender. It's a really great ability that warriors lack. But there's a really minor substitute: Blood Draining enchant. Get your warrior to use it. I'm the 2nd best geared tank (of all classes) on my server and we have a great healer team now - yet, after every heroic / hardmode run, i see a hefty selfheal from that enchant. It's a lifesaver in many respects.
(Btw, i also tank pretty seriously on my DK. DK tanking is what warrior tanking should have been but isnt )