pft, hate you satorri =P
I tend to fall more on EH than than avoidance typically, but to be fair, neither side is really giving any concrete evidence. I am actually not sure you could give any real concrete evidence that one is superior or not honestly. It's a tough nut to mathematically prove one or the other in such a way that the general community is in agreement. I'm not sure we really want to do the whole EH versus avoidance discussion in this thread though.
This is for Edgewalker and yourself, with the utmost respect in this statement, I sure your raid groups are of some of the best geared and best raiders in the realms. It shows in your dedication and achievements to the fullest and your sharing your knowledge and expertise is applauded for the opportunity to talk with some of the best.
But 80% of us don't have the supporting cast you do. We don't have healer's with 30k plus heals and 9K plus dps that can down adds in 10 seconds or clear ICC in 1/2 hour. I know I can't and my group cant, we're working to get there, but we're not even close. So if I could walk into ICC10 with 60K plus and 2 to 3 healers busting off 30K plus heals yeah I'd stack stam and laugh at the need for avoidance too. Hell at that point I might even tank with a 2 hander in ret spec while def. capped.
At that level your right it's not needed, your healers do the job of keeping you alive. At my level I have to do everything possible to help that scenario and me taking the least amount of damage as possible while meeting the EH threshold allows my group to pull through. I mt'd with 43K-45K health full clear and the wipes were never due to tank death on my part, we replaced our bear because the healers were straining to keep him alive at 60K during certain phases and fights.
To more clearly illustrate where we are raid wise, we hit the enrage timer on DBS on 10 man our first attempt and downed him due to a very fortuitous string of misses, dodges and parry's and a bubble. Probably will never happen again, anecdotal circumstance, stupid good luck, but we got the kill and the achieves due to my avoidance and some good RNG luck.
As is said in my edit I agree, stam is important, and the majority of your statements hold great weight, but for a large population of readers that don't have the supporting cast you do, it isn't always practical. And saying avoid is a jester/joke is just pointing lower and middle raiders who take everything you say literally and to heart, to try end game content and be frustrated while they say, But Edge said avoid is a joke in his post so I stacked all stam and no avoidance, why am I dying?
What I stated in the trash pull test is a great tool for guilds to test their tanks and healers to determine the greatest survivability and tank possibilities with the tools and gear they have at their disposal. I can understand why a pure stam tank would call it anecdotal and inconsequential though, after all I'd hate to be that numbers speaking worse tank too.
Except they won't die.But Edge said avoid is a joke in his post so I stacked all stam and no avoidance, why am I dying?
Pretty much every tank gets more than enough avoidance from gear. People seem to have this idea that stacking stamina means you have no mitigtion/avoidance.
Especially with bears. Your anecdote on the 60k bear getting replaced makes no sense, since said 60k bear almost certainly had much more armor than the 45k tanks, and probably about as much avoidance.
There's some huge misconception that bears have horrible avoidance, and Chill drops them to 0% somehow. Someone in my guild made this same assertion, and I had to speak up and say, "Uhh, with Chill I'm still at 30%+ effective avoidance before procs/trinkets, sir."
Jeff "bear" is one of those who took stack stam never avoid to heart his thoughts were "well the healers are spamming greater heal on me anyways so it's a waste of mana and overheals if I'm not getting hit cause they are casting it anyways". Pre nerf he was at 36% dodge and 7% miss without procs etc. After nerf he was at 16% dodge and 7% miss. 23% avoidance. The bosses weren't hitting hard enough to kill him it was the adds and trash that were problematic. Deathwhisper 12K shadowbolt, big add hits for 10K other big add hits for 15K other add hits for 10K, healer is preoccupied, next round dead bear. Not saying he suffered from some bad luck avoid wise but after a few deaths on trash and adds he went tree, we got our warrior tank and things went really smooth from there out.
This was in comparison to the warrior and I having almost identical stats, 560+ def ~9-10~ % miss 11% dodge, 20-22 parry and bv's at about 3K not to mention the kickass spell reflect warriors have. So roughly 42% pure avoid and for myself 45-47% block with over a 3K bv (dont know the warriors block rating) he did say his bv was about 3K though. Personally I think the block and BV had alot to do with making the fights much more survivable for us at roughly 80% of the damage was either avoided are mitigated severely. I saw alot of blocks stating 135 damage taken 3200 blocked. Again I'm not trying to say one class is better than the other, but in his case the low avoid was making the adds and trash chew him up really quickly while I could easily hold my own much less healing needed.
(edit) and I apologize for this taking off into a BR/BV vs non BR/BV in that post
Last edited by Suicyco; 12-17-2009 at 02:13 PM. Reason: appology
Deathwhisper is a large amount (40% or so last parse) of magical damage as well... a really strange fight to bring up in an avoidance discussion.
I find that extremely hard to believe. Unless he was severely undergeared and using gimmicks like Polar gear to ramp his stamina up to 60k hp levels, there's no way that he's "squishy" and dying to trash in ways that a warrior somehow isn't.
There's unverifiable anecdotes and then there's things that just don't make sense numerically.
Ok? In that same scenario, the 45k hp tank already died before that "next round" because you can't pick and choose when RNG avoidance benefits you. You can't say, "Oh healer is busy, lets roll a lot of parries now."Deathwhisper 12K shadowbolt, big add hits for 10K other big add hits for 15K other add hits for 10K, healer is preoccupied, next round dead bear.
The exact same situation will happen to the avoidance tank when the healer is "occupied" and he'll die in the first round as opposed to the 60k tank dying in the second.
At worst, in nax gear, you should be having dodge in the mid 40s unbuffed. Even in the aforementioned polar gear, if you run heroics for a week, you should be decked out in 5pc T9.0 (ilvl232) or if you spend more time, 245 tier gear, and there is no way you will have that low of a dodge. Even with just 3 pieces, 28 conquest badges for belt, 50 triumph badges for t9 chest, and the boots from heroic ToC, the bear would be pushed into the low 40s.
Yeah, that's part of what I was getting at in terms of numerically unbelievable. The poster in question was talking buffed stats in most of his points, so I can only assume he was doing so in reference to this bear as well...and I don't even see how it's possible in any set of gear - even Polar - to be 60k hp and 36% dodge buffed. Maybe someone can find a set that would meet those two requirements, but I can't imagine what it would be.
I would like to add my thoughts into what has become the current discussion.
I find a quote from Hypatia's The Power of Avoidance to be relevant here:
Ill speak for my class specifically since I play no other tank classes. Today Warriors get plenty of avoidance in the form of equips on our gear (as I would imagine Paladins do, since aside from the Tier we are wearing the same non-Tier Plate items).I believe that Response Time and Burst Time both provide useful new ways to measure the utility of gear for tanking. Specifically, I think that understanding these statistics suggests a balanced approached to gearing, which emphasizes neither excessive levels of Effective Health nor excessive levels of avoidance (except for in certain gimmick fights.)
Over-emphasizing avoidance over Effective Health leads to fights in which the tank cannot survive bursts that inevitably occur. With less avoidance and more EH, these fights would be better survivable because the tank would live through unpreventable bursts. But at the same time, over-emphasizing Effective Health over avoidance leads to fights in which the tank is frequently faced with near-disastrous situations which cannot always be overcome. With less EH and more avoidance, these fights would be better survivable because the frequency of those dangerous situations would be reduced.
No evidence is more compelling that we get enough avoidance from equips alone, than "Chill of the Throne". Though Blizzard takes into account the many ways you can gem/enchant the items available, I seriously doubt they would allow an encounter to become so much easier by just stacking EH or Avoidance gems and enchants, Thus forcing them to implement "Chill of the Throne" based on that alone. As Kazey said gems (and in my opinion enchants as well) are "for the most part are very small and inconsequential."
So with gems and enchants out of the way we are left to consider the base stats, how many sockets (not what goes in them!), and the equips on the gear itself.
Based on comparisons for current level gear in Warrior are the T10 Set Bonuses Worth It?, some community members have come to some interesting conclusions. Of which I see a rather small difference in the avoidance department.
In it they compared 5 major slots Head, Shoulders, Chest, Gloves, and Legs. The Tier 10 v the Badge/Crafted/Drops and came up with the following.
77 Defense = 1.88% Avoidance before Diminishing ReturnsSo basically you lose 77 defense, 3 dodge, and some threat for a gain of over 3,000 armor and 54 stam and also gain 132 parry.
132 Parry = 2.92% before Diminishing Returns.
Based on your current avoidance levels the Diminishing Returns may vary a bit more than others. I'm not 100% sure how to calculate out how much avoidance/parry you would be left with after subtracting Diminishing Returns so I will not speculate with a random number. But I think they will probably go down dramatically.
This somewhat minor difference in 5 major pieces (the bulk and backbone of your entire gear set) shows me that you can basically swap out EH for Avoidance trinkets/rings/necks for a so called "Avoidance fight" and still come out relatively the same.
EDIT: The bigger picture I'm trying to figure out here is whether I should be focusing on more Stamina or more Armor for my physical damage gear set. The original reason this thread attracted my attention.
Last edited by Bodasafa; 12-17-2009 at 03:26 PM.
There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.
Felhoof's work involving Polar Set on a bear, working out to 43% dodge. The trick is, Polar gear is only 3 pieces, and the rest of his math has some impressive gear. This guy must have been sporting some impressive stam gear.
We describe ourselves as a casual raiding guild. A little before Coliseum hit, i opened up the question "can we do Ulduar hardmodes? at least in 10man". I got about 5 volunteers, half of them completely believing that we had neither the gear nor the dedication, hell not even the intention, of playing the game at a hardmode level.
We went ahead, ready for a lot of wipes. Wipe we did and slowly we progressed. The real two eye-openers for us were Mimiron and especially Algalon. Those bosses require a gameplay level that we thought practically impossible. That description on the algalon fight "whatever you think spamming the tank is, it's not enough" is very accurate. And not just healing. Same thing goes for dps. Just as an example, during that 1 hour period, the average dps of the group increased by about 25%. Same people, same day, same gear. 25% increase - something they thought just wasnt possible.
Up until that time, our guild was progressing though tank power. The tanks had the best gear, itemized for the best possible balance of avoidance & EH. It was easier to gear up 2-3 tanks that way than the whole of our healers. So we usually progressed (and i'm talking all the way from vanilla) with tanks of the best gear & healers 2-3 tier levels lower. Yes, the tanks were doing exactly what you say - doing their damnest to stay alive.
After Algalon, all our players are playing substantially better. We no longer progress through tank power & overstacked healing. On a progression fight we'd always go with 3 tanks & 7-8 healers. On saurfang, we went in with 5. Once you know how hard you can push all your team - and they're willing to be pushed - then stacking stamina becomes the norm (as everybody is saying, you still get enough avoidance from gear). Nowadays i'm gearing for threat even, instead of stam, because i know if i die, the healers will start working harder and actually become better at what they do. I'm not slacking, i'm just not absorbing.
@Bodasafa: I dont agree with counting gems & enchants inconsequential. Imo the major part of the reason for Chill of the Throne is Blizzard itemizing Ulduar & Coliseum gear with the thinking gemslots would be filled with at best, rare gems. Once you start gemming with epics, socketed but inferior itemlevel gear significantly overshoots higherlevel, nonsocketed gear. Gems & enchants individually might not be much. When you add all the available slots on all slots, then they become a major parameter.
Be careful, EH is stamina AND armor (AND RESISTANCES DAMNIT!). You should have written, "...more stamina or more Armor and why?"
OK, inc wall'o'text crit.
So the question I have are as follows:
1) is there a realistic situation where you have more stamina than armor to the point where the armor is better? Your spreadsheet shows numbers of where this occurs, but what kind of gear setup would that be? The gear inherently has a lot of armor, to the point were you are hitting significant diminishing returns on armor and it takes less stamina for it to be the more valuable stat? I say this without actual minimum requirements for specific dungeons, just armor sets which would actually do this. The only way I can come up with this is the proverbial stam socketed polar set with brewfest trinkets.
2) 240 armor vs 18 stam on gloves.
The 240 armor will inherently lose to the EH battle to 18 stam, simply because they never made an update to the 240 in WotLK except by engineering. The budget just isn't there. If you compare apples to apples, namely the heavy knothide kit (10 stam), then you have a chance. Yet people choose the 240 armor over 18 stam in some cases, because it isn't about the tank surviving, it's about who is responsible for tank surviving.
If you are the avoidance tank, you are leaving your fate to lady luck, by precisely how much avoidance you have. If you are a mitigation tank (high armor/high block/high resistance), then you are putting the fate in your own hands by passive means, which I believe is the best way. If you are the proverbial meatbag, you are in essence demanding your healer to constantly heal you, and in reality, that is fine if Satorri's initial assessment is correct, that healer mana is not an issue. The problem is, that healer mana IS an issue, for the following reasons:
1) Insufficient healers (killed in action, aggressive raid composition ,etc.).
2) Something is diverting their attention (the DPS standing in the fire), and forcing them to spend their mana on the tank AND the DPS at a rate greater than they can sustain. No matter how you gear your tank or how good your healer is, if your DPS is stupid everybody suffers (or you spend 45 minutes doing the 25m safety dance with one tank and one healer. Yes, I did this back in the day).
3) Healers are undergeared. And really, everybody is considered undergeared to varying degrees until you essentially trivialize the content by virtue of your gear (i.e. on farm status)
4) DPS is underperforming/undergeared, and they cannot meet DPS races/enrage timers. Solved only by having healers+tanks who trivialize the content or gear/train the DPS.
All this is contingent really on meeting minimum avoidance/mitigation/EH targets for the content, which in a rough manner is accomplished by having the appropriate gear for the content (ilvl 200 for nax25/U10, 213-219 for U25, 226 for ToC/Ony 10, 232 for ToC25/Ony25/ICC10, etc.), modified by little things like meeting caps, gearing/gemming/enchanting/glyphing/buffing appropriately, etc. to weed out the inexperienced. Those who say stam stacking is necessary for ToGC pre-ICC gear era are really saying the following:
1) There aren't enough non-stam EH options for us to take available and meet minimum Time To Live (TTL) requirements for the content, such as armor kits, resistance gear, etc., as Hydross/Mother Shahraz/Saphiron are the last bosses made where you could stack content appreciable mitigation and make it work (Sarth needed level 70 FR gear, I wont' count that).
2) Due to diminishing returns on avoidance/mitigation, the amount of avoidance/mitigation needed to make an appreciable change to your TTL is not possible given the number of enchants/sockets/etc. available.
3) Most importantly, they suggest that through pure stam stacking, they can reach the magical state where they can live for one more hit. Put another way, if the gear allows them to survive 2.9 hits, and stam stacking changes this by 5%, then we have a solution. A 5% is normally a negligible amount on its own, but if it pushes you past the integer 3+ hits, that last 5% is huge.
Blizzard seems to tune the raid bosses to fix this, rather than gear. What would happen if in cataclysm, all stamina gems were eliminated, leaving only patches and enchants. Then what? Whenever people argue about stam stacking, very few people on both sides argue a stamina enchant over anything else, but a gemming choice is sure to spark a debate. That's because the enchanting alternatives to stam, frankly, suck, so it is mostly cookie cutter. (the exception is probably the eng glove enchant). But if that's all you had, and you couldn't gem for stamina, that would REALLY be a great way to force people to consider gemming instead of mindless stam stack.
See, the problem is this is why EHP is better in my opinion. You said yourself that if you stack avoidance you are relying on RNG to stay alive. If a DPS or healers get boned on marrowgar, then you have to be able to live longer. I cannot count the number of times I've done Ony with PuGs and I've seen my self at 1k health b/c of bad healers and dps. But because I have the extra gear, health, and mitigation, I'm able to be kept alive. I've also done a LOT of PuGs on my warlock alt with tanks that I inspect, and quietly /facepalm, but I realize it's Ony so I don't really say anything, but those tanks end up dying if things don't go according to plan. Having more EHP above the supposid "minimum requirements" gives your healers a buffer to catch up, and has saved myself repair bills on many an occasion. I say this because it is rarely a tradeoff between armor and stamina, it's a trade off between avoidance and EHP, because well... you can't gem for armor (don't get picky with me on agi).The problem is, that healer mana IS an issue, for the following reasons:
1) Insufficient healers (killed in action, aggressive raid composition ,etc.).
2) Something is diverting their attention (the DPS standing in the fire), and forcing them to spend their mana on the tank AND the DPS at a rate greater than they can sustain.
I was going to respond to the rest of your post, but this is what it comes down to.
If you're talking about TTL or "Time to Live" for EHP, that is assuming full to dead without heals. From an EHP standpoint (armor vs. stamina) if it is all physical damage, it doesn't matter whether it's armor or stamina as long as one gives more EHP than the other. Say you are using heart of iron over glyph of indominability. Heart of Iron calculates as more EHP for me than glyph, therefore my TTL is longer if I use heart of iron instead of glyph of indominability.
Edit: I'd also like to introduce you to my friend, the overhealing column: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=3205&e=3677
Last edited by Aggathon; 12-17-2009 at 05:57 PM.