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Thread: Armor vs Stam: Effective Health

  1. #181
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    You get less of a "bonus" because it's baseline 277. Also you have to pick between Rune Tap providing that mitigation boost, slight amounts of avoidance, stamina, and strength, or the armor. The 277 will almost certainly win out in the end for *most* fights (just due to the nature of boss abilities and burst)... but damn it's nice to have a choice for once.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Glyph of Indomitability is most likely going to be your best bet if you are going for pure EH in a 2nd trinket, however The Black Heart is an extremely good trinket all-around.
    The uptime on the black heart is absurdly high as well, I've had multiple procs during trash and boss fights making it a pretty sweet piece for it's i-level.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Also related AC and Stamina
    I have read your works many times but have trouble with algebra math. I'm a simple carpenter, I guess geometry would be more my thing.

    I was wondering if someone could elaborate on this:

    So, what should you aim for when choosing gear? What we see here is that balance is pretty key to the whole thing. If you stack one at the expense of the other, you are doing yourself more harm than good overall. Having a good balance between armour and stamina tends to focus both for you - when you are taking physical damage. Back in Burning Crusade, the 12000A/12000H pair was thrown around as a "good starting point" for Karazhan raiding. We see that this pair tends to be around 1:20. For Wrath of the Lich King, it seems that 20000A/20000H will be the goal.
    So are you saying the ideal ratio for stamina and armor should always be the same? Or that you are looking for a ratio of 1:20 (I'm assuming that would mean 1 stamina to 20 armor).

    Forgive me as I'm sure this is quite simple in more educated minds.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  4. #184
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    Well, I may be biased but I just use Rawr.

    If I want to check for EH, I just use the default scale and either sort the results by 'Survival' (EH) or turn down the Threat and Mitigation scales to 0 so only Survival/EH is shown.

    Less work by hand and always updates automatically based on buffs and your other pieces of gear.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  5. #185
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    The simple answer is that it is very unlikely that you'll ever be able to stack enough extra armour to shift the balance such that adding armour would be "bad".

    A simpler answer is to see which of adding the health or armour increases your EH the most
    Got a question? Try here: Evil Empire Guides and here: Tankspot Guides and Articles Library first!

  6. #186
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    Quick question about the meta gem 32 stam 2% armor from items, is the armor multiplier applied to all equipped (rings, trinkets included) and to proc items ie: black heart netting an additional 2% on top of the 7056 armor for the 10 second duration or is the proc considered an applied buff like devo and gift? So math wise in the stam/armor EH how can I map or predict expected EH returns on the bonus value from the meta? The 2% gain from the meta being applied to ?? is what peeked my thought train on this as I'm not sure of what exactly to count as far as contributors.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    The simple answer is that it is very unlikely that you'll ever be able to stack enough extra armour to shift the balance such that adding armour would be "bad".

    A simpler answer is to see which of adding the health or armour increases your EH the most
    Thank you Satrina.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suicyco View Post
    Quick question about the meta gem 32 stam 2% armor from items, is the armor multiplier applied to all equipped (rings, trinkets included) and to proc items ie: black heart netting an additional 2% on top of the 7056 armor for the 10 second duration or is the proc considered an applied buff like devo and gift? So math wise in the stam/armor EH how can I map or predict expected EH returns on the bonus value from the meta? The 2% gain from the meta being applied to ?? is what peeked my thought train on this as I'm not sure of what exactly to count as far as contributors.
    Trinket armor is not modified by the Meta or Talents. What you see is what you get. I believe this holds true to enchants and rings (possibly necks and additional armor on weapons like Crusaders Glory) as well.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  9. #189
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    Yes, the meta gem should only apply to base armor, not bonus armor.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suicyco View Post
    The uptime on the black heart is absurdly high as well, I've had multiple procs during trash and boss fights making it a pretty sweet piece for it's i-level.
    I'm kind of curious if anyone runs an addon to measure uptime on The Black Heart. I always hear about it's great uptime, but I never see any solid numbers. I just went back to ToC to get another of it and I'm going to test it myself unfortunately utopia doesn't seem to record custom item's uptime. However a little addon named emitpU seems particularly good at it.

  11. #191
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    It's got as good of uptime as any ICD-locked trinket in the sense that it will trigger every 45 seconds on the nose, pretty much.

    The 'nice' thing about the black heart comes with its properties on tank swapping. If you do tank swaps, the ICD period tends to reset during a tank swap, meaning your effective uptime while actually tanking is significantly higher. For instance, if you tank for 30 seconds and swap on a fight, BH will be up 1/3rd of the time you're actually tanking. If you tank for 20 seconds and relax for 40 (PP is a good example here) it'll be up 50% of the time.

    I've never seen it proc multiple times. Point of fact I believe that it can't, unless something's drastically changed or there are bugs when hit simultaneously.

  12. #192
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    I think the multiple procs is looking at the course of the fight, which is a given. If it has a 45 sec ICD, it will proc 4 times every 3 minutes (roughly). But it's not a controllable proc and it only last for 10 seconds. So if procs when you're at 100% health, you have 10 seconds of armor and then 35 seconds of no extra armor even if you need it.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  13. #193
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    That's true - but again, on tank swapping fights it's very, very clear when it will proc; very predictably at the time of the swap. In that respect, if you're planning on using a CD at that point anyway it's like getting another CD.

    Put it another way: if someone said you could have a 670 stam proc for 10 seconds every time you taunted, would you think that is more or less valuable than a 6k shield? Or more or less valuable than 10% dodge or 6k health? Now, lets say that instead of getting this once every 3 minutes like Juggs or once every 2 minutes like CSK, you got it once every minute, as soon as you taunted.

    Why wouldn't that be good?

  14. #194
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    But how useful is it? So the first 10 seconds of your swap you have an extra 7k armor. These are almost certainly the 10 seconds you are least likely to need the armor. Sometimes if the healers are slow it would be valuable, but generally it's towards the end of your turn that the armor would be the most useful.

    Theoretically it sounds good, if each tank has for 1 minute then you're getting the first 10 seconds and close to the last 10 seconds. But does that make it more useful than a 6k absorb or procs targeted for when you're needing a little extra help?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  15. #195
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    But how useful is it? So the first 10 seconds of your swap you have an extra 7k armor. These are almost certainly the 10 seconds you are least likely to need the armor. Sometimes if the healers are slow it would be valuable, but generally it's towards the end of your turn that the armor would be the most useful.
    Tank swaps have been, traditionally, some of the scariest times to be a tank. Healers often haven't switched over or are having to heal the first tank right away, and there's often a big burst of damage. Most of the time you'd pre-use a CD anyway. So that's about the best time possible to have a CD - on the first connecting hit.

    It really depends on the fight, but a lot of times it will certainly be more useful. Armor is already an awesome proc, and having 5% more absorption from armor (which is equivalent on most tanks to about a 16% reduction in incoming damage from what they had before) is very strong. Having it every minute is similarly very strong.

    Now, if you can't as easily control when it procs it's not nearly as good. But in those situations where you can - and there are plenty - it's very nice.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Tank swaps have been, traditionally, some of the scariest times to be a tank. Healers often haven't switched over or are having to heal the first tank right away, and there's often a big burst of damage. Most of the time you'd pre-use a CD anyway. So that's about the best time possible to have a CD - on the first connecting hit.
    I guess that's part of the different flavors of WoW. Outside of Fester, I've never really had problems on the transitions, and that problem went away with better corrdination and SB. Most taunt fights don't hit for particually large amount of damage in my experience, it's usually the stacking debuff that you have to watch out for.

    Of course, I missed all but ICC when it was progression due to not starting until well after WotLK dropped joining a fail guild as a n00b so it's possible that may be more true prior to ICC. But in ICC, LDW, DBS, Fester, PP, nothing a very small amount of coordinaton takes care off.

    TBH's proc is great. But I'd rather have TSK, Scarab, or other on-use procs and use SB for taunt tranisitions. My personal style, this type of use of TBH just doesn't seem all that valuable as there are other tools available and allow for what I consider better trinkets (though TBH is far from a moldy ham spamwich )
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  17. #197
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    Transitions are traditionally the most stressful part of tanking. Cooldown cycling has taken away a lot of the grief, but 7K additional armor with no CD or coordination requires as pretty amazing.

  18. #198
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    I don't like relying on procs for such things. If it's not a 100% proc (Wowhead claims it's a 25% chance,) then you are just as likely to get the proc just after the stresspoint of the swap.
    I view it just like I see avoidance. It helps, and it's great to have, but you can't rely on it to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  19. #199
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    Different flavors. A big part of the reason I don't prefer TBH (which is a great trinket) over Glyph of Idom is the lack of explicit control over it. I much prefer nearly 1800 armor and the idea of popping SB and announcing in vent I'm taunting than rely on a RNG proc to help. But I developed a complex regarding healers as I was learning to tank with less than 2 good healers and it's never gone away.... Makes me something of a control freak about survaiblity, preferring on-use to RNG.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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