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Thread: Armor vs Stam: Effective Health

  1. #161
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    Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but they really need more armor based enchants, and armor gems / resist gems. Then I could really make sets for certain fights.

    Also the value of armor vs. stamina on trinkets really depends on how hard the mob is hitting you for before mitigation. For some fights, like heroic Northrend Beasts, there really isn't a question for TTL.

  2. #162
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    well, most EHP calculators calculate full to dead values, so if you got hit for all of your hit points, how much dmg reduction would there be. Even based on that, glyph of indom still isn't better than heart of iron.
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  3. #163
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    however, I will agree it makes you easier to heal, so as long as you're not having survivability issues in general, glyph isn't a bad choice and has an alright on use effect. But I mean... as long as overhealing is insane (which it is, at least for me atm) I don't think it matters a TON whether it is armor or stam.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    well, most EHP calculators calculate full to dead values, so if you got hit for all of your hit points, how much dmg reduction would there be. Even based on that, glyph of indom still isn't better than heart of iron.
    That's not correct though. Are you looking based at the % increase in armor in your average gear and using unmitigated hit values?

  5. #165
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    No, it's pretty simple to do the backwards math on it, if glyph increases your damage reduced by 2% then you're reducing a 55k hit after 66% reduction to 68% reduction yadda yadda...

    I don't remember the exact values, but I ran the numbers a while back and I got heart of iron as better in any scenario I ran based on my gear setup. I shoulda saved the results somewhere...

    Edit: I mean if you can show me some solid math to prove me wrong I'll recant my statement, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

    Edit 2: To re-emphasize the point:

    EHP = Hit Points/damage reduction so:

    EHP =Hit Points /[(1-%armor reduction)(1-%defense stance reduction)(1-%buff reduction)]

    Therefore when you do the EHP calculation it is taking in the effectiveness of all your hit points (aka a full to dead hit) based off of the reductions you get. The reduction from glyph ends up being less EHP than the EHP of Heart of Iron at my gear levels, by a good margin too.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 12-17-2009 at 09:39 PM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  6. #166
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    Armor is perfect for those seeking a balancing approach as it contains the properties of both EH and damage reduction. In effect, it works well with both your exisiting EH pool and your avoidance pool--which makes it very powerful in terms of survival time.

    That said, I do think you're slightly wrong Aggathon. According to the numbers I'm seeing in my current gear, Glyph of Indom beats the EH of Heart of Iron at the hit sizes we are currently seeing. Based on my calculations the EH of the Glyph is about 3% higher than the Heart of Iron. (Satrina's is quite a bit higher in EH terms, though.) However, it will depend slightly on what buffs/gear you already have. At worst, it is nearly identical plus the added bonus of damage reduction and a slightly better Use effect.

    At the end of the day, though, due to the double-sided effect of Armor, not only is the Glyph a decent EH trinket but it is actually probably the single best available trinket in terms of extending survival/burst time. Armor also has the bonus of making absorb shields and other static damage prevention abilities (such as the Warrior T10 4-piece) more valuable.

    Once I am able to get the Unidentifiable Organ from ICC-10, I will most likely run with Organ + Glyph or Organ + Satrina's depending on if the fight is magical or not.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 12-18-2009 at 04:57 AM.
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  7. #167
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    how does hit size matter? what I'm saying is that the reduction for your entire health pool would be lower. If you are hit for less than your HP pool it would technically reduce the value of armor because we're talking about a small section of HPs (though it would reduce the relative values of the HP too).

    Does that make sense?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Does that make sense?
    Yes, however I'm still not seeing how you get the Heart of Iron having more EH than the Glyph. Perhaps under some situations, but in my full raid-buffed scenario with my current gear the Glyph offers more EH than the Heart of Iron. (Checked your gear as well, and still seems to be the case.)

    Perhaps some interactions between other damage reduction buffs and such aren't being accounted for?
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  9. #169
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    I gotta go, getting off work right now... I'll log in when I get back and respond (also, all damage reduction buffs being equal, the calculations shouldn't change which shows higher, it just wouldn't be as big a discrepancy).
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I gotta go, getting off work right now... I'll log in when I get back and respond (also, all damage reduction buffs being equal, the calculations shouldn't change which shows higher, it just wouldn't be as big a discrepancy).
    Even if HP caused the variance to drift toward the favor of the Heart of Iron, the difference would be minimal--even at the sub-49k health range, Heart of Iron only has a 5% EH advantage over the Glyph.

    That being the case, I doubt it's worth the tiny increase of EH even in that case vs. the additional damage reduction from the Armor.

    However, as soon as you pass around ~52k health, the Glyph is better in both cases based on the eyeballing of the numbers that I'm looking at.
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  11. #171
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    I have 53526HPS fully raid buffed with Heart of Iron on.
    I have 32165 Armor fully raid buffed with Heart of Iron on.
    According to tankspot's EHP calculator this gives me an EHP value of 174465.84

    So doing the reverse math if I was wearing glyph...
    I have 51637HPS fully raid buffed
    I have 33956 Armor fully raid buffed
    According to tankspot's EHP calculator this gives me an EHP value of 174489.36

    Hrm... so it looks like with my last couple of gear upgrades, I just BARELY passed the EHP mark for glyph of indom being better than heart of iron.

    SO I WAS CLOSE! lol.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  12. #172
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    Ha ha, what you're arguing was the point of the original post, I just happened to do the math for The Black Heart and Satrina's Impeding Scarab (on either side of the Heart of Iron).

    Comparing to the glyph of Indomitability, for typically achievable values, the armor trinket was better than the lower level trinket (Black Heart), and not as good as the same level trinket (Scarab) even considering physical mitigate-able damage.

    If I had to guess, if you are geared at ToC gear and beyond, with the typical range of health and armor, Heart of Iron may well go farther, but there is a point to take away from this.

    One is not ALWAYS better than the other, it just depends on where you're coming from, and you can sometimes generalize given the propensity of tanks to stack health, and the less frequent availability of bonus armor.

    And Edge, I agree, I'd love to see more ways to add armor. I was gitty that all but the t10 set (the first tier anyway) had bonus armor up the wall. I haven't done the math yet, but it could be fun to flirt with the armor cap (and Frost knights should be watching their use of Unbreakable Armor since it seems rather likely you'll hit the cap with that, moreso glyphed).
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  13. #173
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    DK T10 has armor bonuses? SONOFAB~
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  14. #174
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    Well, figured we had to get the thread back on topic eventually, right?!

    I am happy to see the fact that there are bonus armor options in virtually every slot in currently known items, even if that means using items like TotC-10H Ring/Weapon for a bit longer until the newer items are available.

    Armor is such a great option for Warriors especially, as we are naturally far, far below the cap and have a lot of head-room for upgrading in that way. We are also getting to a point where the amount of Health we have combined with the ever-increasing quantity of Armor on items (due to item budget increases) is making Armor ever more valuable as a passive stat.

    The side-effects of it playing well with the loss of avoidance and with mechanics such as Shields (go Disc Priests!) is just icing on the cake really.

    As for the Armor cap, perhaps with procs Warriors will be getting there... but in terms of passive values, the sets I was looking at given what we know so far "only" get up to around 73% reduction or so. Hard to say without knowing what options may be coming from The Lich King drops.
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  15. #175
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    +700-800 armor even on wrists, belt, and boots? Yes please!
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #176
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    Oh, I thought you meant the T10 set pieces, lol.
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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Oh, I thought you meant the T10 set pieces, lol.
    I know the first set doesn't have bonus armor for DKs, but I'm blanking on whether the higher tier set pieces do.

    I like the set bonuses but I need to make a careful decision about whether or not I want the bonuses that badly, the bonus armor is making me drool a little.
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  18. #178
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    Ya, as it did me, I'm going to pick up set pieces after all my other emblem gear, it'll be more like an afterthought, lol.

    The higher tier doesn't have bonus armor, but it does have higher armor value, as I recall.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  19. #179
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    So I guess the conclusion on Stamina v. Armor is this:

    To determine which one is better for you plug the required information into the EH calculator at the top of this site.

    Then remove/add the stats (armor/stam) for your new enchant/item and compare the final EH numbers to see which one is higher for you.

    That sound about right? or is there a better way?
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
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