You gentleman are making an assumption that there is one 'BEST' trinket (or in this scenario second best) out there. If you know anything regarding tanking you already know multiple pieces of gear are often times swapped depending on the fight.
Let's beat this dead horse more:
Magical damage = Stamina > Armor
We can stop posting that now.
There is an amazing trinket from ICC that will replace Indom/192stam scarab and this conversation will be null in 2 weeks.
Oh, and Magical damage does not always = stamina > armor. It depends on the exact amounts of stamina, armor and magic damage you have (I'm sure you realize that already - there is no overall statement like that that's true without knowing actual values.) That's what the "new" EH formulation over on Maintankadin was designed to consider - it's an EH formula that does not assume all the damage that killed you is melee hits (although works for that too), so if you care about maximizing EH you can get an exact measure of it for the specific set of abilities that you are worried about dying to. The author of Tankpoints is adding it into his next release version of the add-on as well (alpha version has it in now).
Last edited by Xenix; 12-07-2009 at 09:50 AM.
Magical Damage = Stamina AND Resistances
Physical Damage = Stamina AND Armor AND Avoidance.
As a side note, anybody got a pointer to physical damage which is mitigated by armor but not by avoidance? I seem to recall Patchwerk's Hateful Strike fell into that category, but not sure. I am wondering where Edgewalker is getting the idea armor mitigates things that avoidance does not avoid.
Finally, I was in an interesting Ony25 yestarday as a Holy Priest. The pally tank was adequately geared (45k buffed health), and there were 5 healers, 2 trees and 3 holy priests. Predictably, on P1, the tank was HoTted to wazoo with 2 druids as well as 3 renews, with one priest keeping up ProM. The other interesting thing was that our DPS just SUCKED. Nobody broke 4.5k, and over half were at an abyssmal sub 3k. So this resulted in a painfully long Ony run, and a very boring P1. But I actually got to *see* avoidance at work. Each swing that connected would take down the tank's health by 40-45% (40% if blocked and/or inspiration proc, 45% if not blocked). And every time, between the rolling hots, a bouncing ProM, and one of the 3 Flash Heals that was well correctly timed with respect to server latency, the health would go back up instantly. Of course, with the 40+% avoidance, this happened every 4 seconds.
What was different here was that this went on for a VERY long time due to bad DPS, and with geared healers and a tank, it became a slow and boring spam while we waited for DPS to get there. Usually, phases go so quick you rarely get the chance to stop and pay attention to it in real time. Also, the stacking of HoTs ensured that tank was never in danger even due to latency, as the HoTs kept ticking, which I don't normally see, I am used to a holy pally/disc/shaman sniping the heals with their direct heals.
As for physical effects that aren't mitigated by armor, the major thing that falls under that category is bleeds. Spinning Pain Strike from the mistresses on Jaraxxus and Big Bang on Algalon are a couple more examples.
Oops, yeah - I misunderstood what he was asking. Another couple examples would be Gormok's impale ability (the attack that applies the DoT) and Thorim's Unbalancing Strike (although US can still miss).
There are certain times in an encounter where Blizzard wants us to take physical damage but have it be completely unavoidable.
Those are the situations that jere describes above. As such, armor is a very valuable deterrent for death in many encounters.
This is not logically correct.
Let's use the same scenario of damage and you have the choice between a trinket that gives you 2000 HP or an armor trinket that reduces physical damage by a further 5% (roughly equiv to the glyph).
Now, lets say you try the stamina trinket first, unless you find yourself below 2000 HP then the stamina trinket has not helped you one single bit (apart from say, minor things like if you use a %HP based self heal or something). Whereas if you had the armor trinket you would have reduced the damage you take in that fight by 2.5% every time.
So, an armor trinket will help you 100% of the time for a varying, but significant amount, whereas it's RNG whether that extra stamina is of much use at all. If course, i'm not saying stamina is shit, it's just that it's usefulness lies in it's overall level and not the choice between two items.
Well even if armor works on every hit individually, that doesn't make it better. Whichever of the two gives more EH will technically still win. Sure if you never use that 2000 HP it was useless. But if you took a tank in a situation where 2000 HP would be useless and switched his gear so that he lost the 2k health and got the armor, then if the EH from the armor was less than the EH from the HP, then the damage reduction, though used every hit, would still be useless because it was never needed in the first place. The tank would have survived the same streak of hits without the damage reduction in place.
It's clear that the stam trinket provides more EH, but as you cannot rely on EH only, and needs mitigation as well, the choice remains very uncertain as armor is mainly a mitigation stat, and the Glyph of Indominability provides a lot of avoidance as well.
It's all about balancing EH vs mitigation and if there's a solution to that, it has to be one balancing corresponding to each encounter. For my part I would prefer the armor trinket in most physical situation and the stam trinket in most magical cases. Still I would eventually prefer the stam trinket for some extremely hard hitting bosses because of the spikes dmg. But the frontier remains uncertain.
^^ What Reev said.
The point of this calculation was to illustrate that in terms of physical that can be mitigated, you can actually directly correlate the value of health and armor depending on how much of each you already have.
In other words, if you're trying to get the best "Effective Health" you want to know how much more your health is worth when you add more armor, and how much your current armor will increase each additional spot of health you add.
I know mitigation is part of EH, of course.
But when I'm thinking about my global mitigation (including fixed or absolute mitigation : armor & stance etc, and statistical or variable mitigation : avoidance, block and other variables), I'm considering whether I will require more a less heal at equal damages taken per second. On the other hand, when I'm thinking about EH, I'm considering how big would be the stronger hit(s) I can survive in one, two, or may be three times in a raw, before any heal can reach me. It's definetely two different ways of thinking, two different considerations.
That's what I meant in my precedent post. The stam trinket is ubber in term of EH for most tanks, that's a fact, and at same ilvl it's likely it would always be like that between a stam and an armor trinket. But if you're considering mitigation, then it's evident that the armor one is better. And now if you're considering the EH logic and the mitigation logic, trying to find a balance, then there is a conciliation to make, and the solution will depend on the fight you're thinking of, whether you've already got the EH virtual cap for the fight or not. Isn't it ?
Anyway it was worth doing the maths. And if I agree with it, it's not because it's that evident but because I checked that too (with Tankpoints and Rawr, not being myself godlike in maths lol).
Last edited by Aradril; 12-11-2009 at 06:49 AM.