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Thread: Shield Specialization... why?!

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikak View Post
    Aggathon,

    To come back to your original question: Why spec into 5/5 Shield Specialization?

    You got all the best answers under the sun accept everyone missed the fact that I do not believe you understand fully how the new changes work.

    Take a peak at it again: Shield Specialization - Spell - World of Warcraft

    Notice the last line: "has a 100% chance to generate 5 rage when a block, dodge, or parry occurs."

    I think that will make the logic of taking 5/5 shield spec make more sense to you. You will gain rage on all your forms of avoidance/mitigation not just blocks.

    And then of course all the other good reasons to take it that everyone has pointed out comes into play: extra survivability, specialized gear sets, etc..

    Hope that helps!

    //kak
    I'm aware of the tooltips.

    I did actually spec it this week. If there's a boss that hits hard I have no rage problems and the small amount of extra block is probably beneficial at some point.

    For Anub'Arak add tanking this is damned near manditory. I started putting together a set and if I can just get the HVH trinket to drop then I can definitely get to 101.6% unhittable.

    For anything else i had to tank with this spec I had SERIOUS rage issues. Even tanking naxx in threat gear was bad. 5 rage just doesn't matter when everything costs so much.

    I'll probably keep this spec just because our guild is working on heroic 25 anub'arak, but if I go back to anything else I'm speccing right back out of it. Maybe it's just my playstyle, but I had very very very bad rage problems when I took out 3/3 focused rage.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  2. #22
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    Personally, I dropped imp revenge and only 1 pt in focussed rage to max shield spec and so far have been happy with the results (something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ). Other threads on this forum indicate that glyphed and with set bonuses, devastate outstrips revenge for threat, so it seems like a fair compromise.

  3. #23
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    I think the main reason is that various number-crunching has shown that both are pretty similar in terms of net rage over time.

    So, that being the case, why would you not that the one that also grants some mitigation--even if it's not a huge amount? It's still something that will add to your survival.

  4. #24
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    Why is everyone looking at either or? Why not have em both?

    Progression: 5/10/56 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
    or
    Threat: 15/3/53 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

  5. #25
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    The main reasons I would say are:

    1) It's often needed for tanks to go DPS mid-raid, especially given the variable number of tanks (and shifting prime classes) needed for each encounter. Due to this, it is almost always more useful to have a raid DPS spec instead of two tanking specs.

    2) Progression raids often require high TPS due to the strict enrage timers and high DPS requirements. It is generally not an option for DPS to back off due to a tank with TPS issues when you are already pushing the boundry of the minimum DPS passable for a fight. Thus a build with both Improved Disciplines and Impale/Deep Wounds is generally preferred.

    3) Improved Demo Shout is a huge loss of available talent points when Paladins can get an equivalent debuff with only 2 (instead of 7) points in an comparatively easily accessible location.

    4) The point of additional points in Focused Rage would be to improve TPS, however the loss of Arms talent points is such a massive TPS loss that you would never hope to make up the difference just via Focused Rage.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 09-29-2009 at 07:59 AM.

  6. #26
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    I wasn't saying have those 2 specs as dual spec, I was saying pick one based on your gear and content. I see no reason to not have points in both Shield Spec & Focused Rage.

    My guild is working on Heroic 25m ToC and when using the 'Progression' spec 5/10/56 I never had any threat issues, it simply requires good rotation priorities. I am currently using 15/3/53 because I prefer to put out more DPS to help with enrage timers and don't really need the imp demo shout as you mentioned because a pally can do it.

    In our case with a pally putting up the equivalent of demo shout we are likely better off with the threat spec whereas others may benefit more from the progression spec, it is really just up to each person and what they are doing. I just don't know why people are arguing about using Shield Spec vs Focused Rage instead of a spec that incorporates them both.

  7. #27
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    I don't disagree completely or anything, just pointing out why I personally don't see a purpose to trying to get both in most cases.

    Unless you absolutely need to put points in Imp Demo Shout (e.g. no Paladin or Fury Warrior you can dump it on) I doubt there is really any particular gain to trading off Impale/Deep Wounds for trying to get both Focused Rage and Shield Specialization.

    As I mentioned, the point of Focused Rage is to increase TPS. However, if you ever drop Deep Wounds/Impale, you lose a massive amount of TPS instantly. You will never, ever make that up anywhere else in the other trees with those 10 floating talent points, so the goal is somewhat subverted as your TPS would be substantially lower even with the additional rage available.

    Maximum mitigation is already provided by a 15/3/53 build which takes Shield Specialization and the 10 additional points in Arms really aren't negotiable if you care about high TPS. Therefore the only real argument to be made is if the mitigation afforded by Shield Specialization is worth the minor loss in TPS you have from not having Focused Rage.

    If, as you point out, you absolutely need to put points into Improved Demo Shout and drop Impale/Deep Wounds, then it is an option due to the fact that Improved Heroic Strike is quite redundant when compared to Focused Rage. However, from my perspective, that is a really non-optimal Protection spec due to the severe loss in DPS/TPS.

  8. #28
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    did you look at the threat spec? It has deep wounds and shield spec and focused rage with the only cost of not using Imp Disc which generally doesn't bother me. You could still use the shield wall glyph and have 3 minute shield wall.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    did you look at the threat spec? It has deep wounds and shield spec and focused rage with the only cost of not using Imp Disc which generally doesn't bother me. You could still use the shield wall glyph and have 3 minute shield wall.
    Indeed I did, but then you have basically shifted the argument from 'Shield Specialization vs. Focused Rage' to 'Focused Rage/Shield Specialization vs. Improved Disciplines.'

    However, in any of the current content I can't really see much reason to drop Improved Disciplines (which is ridiculously useful) vs. Focused Rage, which at best is somewhere between zero and a minor TPS increase situationally.

    Shield Specialization and Focused Rage are usually up for discussion because they are the least important of the talent points available for shifting. So, that being the case, trading them off for a mitigation talent seems a bit counter-productive.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I'm aware of the tooltips.
    Cool, was just unsure from this line:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon
    If I'm getting rage starved I would much rather have a 17 rage SS, 2 rage revenge, or 12 rage devestate than if I block I get 5 rage. That depends on if I block!
    Lots of good info in this thread. Thanks for asking the question.
    "A man can learn twice as much from milking a cat as two men can from a very tall fourth man.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    did you look at the threat spec? It has deep wounds and shield spec and focused rage with the only cost of not using Imp Disc which generally doesn't bother me. You could still use the shield wall glyph and have 3 minute shield wall.

    There are a lot of fights were 3 minute shield wall is necessary, especially on anub'arak and especially if your AoE is slow. From what I'm seeing/reading even with an unhittable spec it is often smart to use shield wall at the end of waves 2 and 4. You're pushing it far too close with a 3 minute shield wall to do that.

    What I've considered doing for H-Anub-25 is dropping glyph of last stand (since with the block set you're pretty much tossing EPH out the window anyways) and picking up glyph of cleaving for better AoE aggro since we only have 2 rogues and FoK nerf means slightly less threat. I figure hitting 3 at a time instead of 2 should help.

    If a fight is raw threat based and I don't need imp disc I could see dropping it and maybe dropping a point in imp revenge to go 3/3 focused rage. If I go a threat spec I might actually drop all points in imp revenge because with glyph of devestate and either set bonus devestate becomes better threat than revenge from what I've seen.

    So far I completely agree with Kojiyama, but I don't see me specing out of shield spec for focused rage (sadly) any time soon since I'm kind of re-gearing to be specifically the tank for this fight.

    I also think that the "progression" spec with all the points in fury is a complete waste of time since there are several different class that if you're doing real progression you'll probably have that already give imp demo shout. Feral druids, fury warriors, ret pallies...

    The enrage timers are tough, deep wounds is an absolute MUST.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  12. #32
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    There are a lot of fights were 2 minute shield wall is necessary
    For some reason it won't let me edit my post, but I meant to say 2 min SW is necessary.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikak View Post
    Cool, was just unsure from this line:



    Lots of good info in this thread. Thanks for asking the question.

    Ya, I was kinda rushed when I made it, meant to say block/dodge/parry but kinda went fast.

    Edit: Triple post! why can I edit this one but not my other?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  14. #34
    Yeah i drop Imp. Revenge for Heroic Anub. I don't want to stun something from revenge considering I would rather have a full duration shockwave on everytarget first.

    Glyphs: I use Blocking, Cleaving, and Shieldwall.

    In phase 3 I use a trinket after shield block ends and gain some extra mitigation through the on use of adding SBV. If you trinket the first and 2nd pack then when the third one comes around you won't have another trinket up. Having 2 minute shield wall allows you to use a shield wall every third pack in p3.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishoptwo View Post
    Yeah i drop Imp. Revenge for Heroic Anub. I don't want to stun something from revenge considering I would rather have a full duration shockwave on everytarget first.

    Glyphs: I use Blocking, Cleaving, and Shieldwall.

    In phase 3 I use a trinket after shield block ends and gain some extra mitigation through the on use of adding SBV. If you trinket the first and 2nd pack then when the third one comes around you won't have another trinket up. Having 2 minute shield wall allows you to use a shield wall every third pack in p3.
    Okay, sounds good. Ya I can drop imp revenge and probably toss it into focused rage for more threat, should increase the number of cleaves I can do.

    Another tanget: How viable do ya'll think this gearset is for things that are not H-Anub'Arak 25 adds?

    I guess I could tank ignis adds without ever taking damage =P
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Okay, sounds good. Ya I can drop imp revenge and probably toss it into focused rage for more threat, should increase the number of cleaves I can do.

    Another tanget: How viable do ya'll think this gearset is for things that are not H-Anub'Arak 25 adds?

    I guess I could tank ignis adds without ever taking damage =P
    The fight depends on blocking as much damage as you can when you aren't completely avoiding an attack. Stacking defense is great, but you need to min max your gear for a higher block value.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishoptwo View Post
    Yeah i drop Imp. Revenge for Heroic Anub. I don't want to stun something from revenge considering I would rather have a full duration shockwave on everytarget first.

    Glyphs: I use Blocking, Cleaving, and Shieldwall.

    In phase 3 I use a trinket after shield block ends and gain some extra mitigation through the on use of adding SBV. If you trinket the first and 2nd pack then when the third one comes around you won't have another trinket up. Having 2 minute shield wall allows you to use a shield wall every third pack in p3.
    I have a question for u...

    1. Do you use 2 offtanks or just yourself for the adds in phase 3?

    2. What gearset do you use and also do you what are your tricks/MD's that you have the adds to you? if it is that you are the only tank the glyphs may make a difference.

    3. If you build the proper set you won't take ANY damage at all in phase three, I took a total of 200k melee damage throughout the entire fight, which is almost next to nothing my health bar NEVER dipped below 80% ever, the hots i had on me were enough to keep me up. So why would you spec and glyph for shield wall? when you could spend points into more important areas.

    4. I love you all =D

    -Finkill
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    edit* if you show me your gearset I could help out, I spent about 5 hours theorycrafting my set with the gear I had, unfortunally I never picked up the stupid ulduar pieces so I had to deal with the nax ones, which is what made it so difficult. =/

    you can post here or PM me or w/e i'd be glad to help out
    Last edited by Badga; 09-30-2009 at 05:40 AM.

  18. #38
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    I'll be logged out in what I've managed to get so far today.

    We did attempts last night and as long as we got the rotations correctly I was able to be kept alive very easily. I could really use lavanthor's trinket though, I haven't seen it drop however. I picked up an onyxia blood talisman (in addition to the gnomeragan auto blocker) to try and get me closer to 101.6% unhittable.

    So far fully buffed with agi food and agi and defense elixirs I am 100.05% unhittable. In raid situation I'll have just under 3k BV with trinkets proc'd. If I can get Lav's Talisman that should allow me to switch to strength elixirs and/or strength food.

    Am I close enough to unhittable that I should go ahead and use strength food anyways? I was taking almost no damage anyways, and the attempts wer without agi food/elixirs and the ony blood talisman (was using strength food and heart of iron instead).

    Also gonna try to grab the razorscale belt, and I might make another set of saronite sword breakers since that is the only item that's on both my EHP, threat set, and now my block set, so I'm hesitant to re-gem it.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  19. #39
    few things i noticed with your gear... and enchants.

    1. Your shield... do you not have the Barrier from 10 man HM hodir? it is far better for avoidance and if you are under (which you said you are) then I would go with that until you can aford to lose some avoidance then use the shield your using now. Also if you can, you want to use titanium plating on that, in the ideal situation.

    2. NEED to get the Auryia chest piece, its pretty beast!

    3. take note that the less health you have the better it actually is (to an extent) it will heal the boss for A LOT less which is you adding dps to the boss just by getting proper gear for the fight when building your set.

    4. I would also strongly consider blood draining for add tanking, because in the event that adds to randomly own you, and it has happened before... why i dont really know, it has happened to myself and xav in their kill on his vid, just random POOF! so that extra heal could be VERY critical. It actually saved my ass on our kill, I had one of those random poofs and dipped to about 50% then leach ticked on me and got me rly rly low then a few more (mostly) blocked hits and bd proced on me and brought me up high enough to save me from two back to back melee hits for 2k dmg each. It literally saved my life, i checked the combat log, i would have died.

    5. you wanna get the shield block neck, its amazing

    6. you should also consider chaning up your spec for the fight as well. I went with a 5/15/51 build, i did just under 4k dps on our kill to adds alone, Cleave is fuckin beast man, redic threat from it and sick damage too. the faster adds die the more uptime all dps has to single target anub, anything you can do to help out with that will make a difference. We had world's 3rd fastest kill with 24 people 1 of our rogues was d/c almost the entire fight (blood legion has the fastests grrrrr but they have pretty sick dps). Again feedbeack and any other questions i'll be happy to help with.

    itemization..gemming..enchanting, and again the gear you have is pretty limited. i will log out in my set if that helps but idk how log it will be up, once you get my build etc. lemme know so i can switch back.

    edit* note that i never got the nax bracers either i'm still doing weekly runs to try and get those, and the GM wouldn't restore mine =(
    Last edited by Badga; 09-30-2009 at 07:25 AM.
    Finkill | <Rush> | US Horde | Dark Iron
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...inkill&gn=Rush

  20. #40
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    Thanks tons for your input and responses!

    No, I don't have the Hodir shield. It didn't drop for me and earlier in the year I was fairly busy with RL and couldn't do 10 mans. Hopefully I can get either that shield or the algalon 25 shield before the next time we face anub. Gonna give it a shot tonight.

    I'll re-enchant blood draining. I had it but then I was getting info that said that agi was needed for avoidance if still unhittable, I shall change promptly though, blood draining makes a lot of sense.

    Yes, my gear is fairly limited. Some of the gear I've had/seen I either vendored or passed up long ago because I figured I had better and wouldn't ever use it again. OOPS. I did a Naxx25 run to try and get a bunch of stuff and basically everything dropped for me except the bracers.

    I currently have a GM ticket in to get the bracers of the unholy knight back (I realize they're not nearly as good for this as the maexxna ones, but I think it calculates to more avoidance than the saronite swordbreakers and allows me to split up my EHP set and my block set completely) and the razorscale belt back.

    We actually have never seen the shield block neck drop... ever. So the Naxx25 quest one is the best I can do.

    I also built a 5/15/51 spec and considered playing with it. I usually have my second spec for PvP (though right now it's a random fury spec that I just went for heroics) but I'm not doing a lot of that recently so I think I may respec and set my secondary spec to that.

    Although looking at it I think a 5/13/53 spec would work well since I don't have to cast demo shout (our feral druid has imp demo and it hits them all, my imp demo would only be 3 AP more and I'd rather spend that rage/focus/threat on damage abilities if possible).

    What do you think of... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I'm running H-VH as much as I can for the trinket and we're gonna be doing alg (and auriaya and kologarn aren't too hard to knock out after that) this week before we do more anub attempts, so hopefully I can get some more block gear. It's not that I wouldn't wear it, I just don't have it.

    So to recap:

    Shield - re-enchant with titanium plating if no other shield drops
    Bracers - re-gem/enchant if I can't get new ones?
    Chest - Auriaya chest if it drops
    Neck - Get the block neck if it'll finally drop
    Weapon - put blood draining back on
    Trinket - LAVANTHOR DROP MY TRINKET!!!
    ????
    Profit.

    Thanks tons for all the advice and help to everyone that has. It's especially awesome to get advice from those that have done it.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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