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Thread: Hard modes and the problem of raid size

  1. #101
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    Heh, I've never been sig'd before (to my knowledge). Had to do a double-take when I saw it. Though I'm unsure if that's a good or bad thing, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astemus View Post
    The only thing you'd be left with, assuming equal difficulty, would be the items that are exclusive to 25s right now (Legendaries, recipies, orbs) though there is a small chance of getting these items from hard mode 10s.
    Actually, I think these kinds of things would have to be included in 10m regular just like 25m regular with the tweak of lower drop-rates. If you're leveling the ilvl playing field, craftables and collectibles would also be included in that equation.

  2. #102

    This arguement is tired

    The playing field is equal. Everyone has access to everything in the game. You just have to perform the events that are required of you to get certain things. Some people made the choice not to do what is required of them....in the old days that could have meant an attunement...i.e. you just could not get inside...period. Now it is getting into 25man and 25man hardmode groups. People still don't take their own choices into account when they rail against the loot system as it is....You can get everything you want. You just have to do a, b, and c....
    Some people think the system is not giving them enough even though the requirements for loot have been set by the loot tables per zone. It does not matter how hard or easy it is...it does not matter how many players...if you want item X that is dropped by Faction Champs 25man regular, you are required to be in a 25man regular raid when they all die...it might be in the chest...that is it. Take everything else out of the problem. Those are the rules. So they want the rules to change based on the choices that they made. I still think that is silly. I am a realist. I will probably never see 25man hard anub die even though tons of people have....I could try and change guilds. I could roll a different toon...There are a myriad of options available to me to get what I want. I choose to stay where I am with the group I play with and I do not want Blizz to change the rules for me....why do you? Why does everything have to be the same? Become a better player....make friends with better players. Don't play at all(that'll show them!). I think the arguement for equality is unrealistic. Take accountability for the gaming choices you made and suck it up!

  3. #103
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    It's taken me quite a while to actually read through everyone's post. One thing that everyone is fixated on is comparing existing encounters between 10 and 25. I think we can all agree that they are not balanced between 10s and 25s. But they COULD be. That is the whole point of the OPs post. When Cataclysm hits, it COULD be even. If the difficult of the encounter was similar on an individual's level between both 10 and 25, why should the 25 reward better gear?
    No. Because this completely ignores the social order and the problem Cider mentioned, which is that when things are hard, 10 mans are much easier to do than 25 simply because the chance of one person failing is so much greater on 25. And when things are tightly tuned, one person failing is a wipe.

    Basically the only way they'd be able to do this reasonably is to make the difficulty of 10-man hard modes harder than the 25. Sarth3D would be a prime example; if Sarth3D 10 and 25 were tuned as they were in 3.0 and they dropped the same loot, I'd be okay with that.

  4. #104
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    It's not only easier to avoid individual failure in a 10man vs 25m... (player fail and connectivity issues will ALWAYS happen less, although the latter becomes more severe when it's 10% of your raid ofline)
    but it's also MUCH easier to find 9 competent people to raid with vs 24 competent people.

    If they ever made the loot even scaled, I along with many others would never set foot back into a 25m.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    Maybe you have more than 1 character. But the Orc Warrior you have apparently hasn't even cleared normal 25 man Ulduar yet.
    There really isn't any room for personal attacks in this thread. This is a theory type discussion, so unless you have something to contribute to that, it's best to not post at all.

    I'll give a good example at the easiest end of the spectrum to use as a baseline. This isn't hard mode or even hard stuff. Koralon. My guild decided to clear VoA10 one evening, so we go in and clear it. Maybe at 70% on Koralon, the 2nd healer DC's and comes back at about 40%. The first healer was able to heal thru it, but at great difficulty and mana consumption. I.E. it was very hard. This friend then goes to a VoA25 pug right after, and a healer died right off the bat standing in fire. He didn't even notice a difficulty difference.

    Now, clearly, this encounter is trivial at best, but it does show that things are not always more difficult at the 25 man level. He experienced the same encounter under the best conditions on 10 man (geared guild run), and the worst conditions on 25 man (undergeared pug), encountered a similar failure on both fights, and the results clearly show that the 10 man is harder.

    If a person disconnects on a 25 man encounter, you've lost 4%. Maybe some fights couldn't be won at 96%, but I guarantee it'd be easier than doing the fight when 1 person disconnects on a 10 man encounter. More people may mean there is an increased risk of a problem, but it also means a decreased handicap for such an event.

    Despite all this, I think it would really create alot of problems if blizzard decided to equalize difficulty and loot between both raid sizes. People will blindly think that their 25s are the best and blizzard is catering to casuals by giving 10s equal access to difficulty and loot. What world firsts would matter? Right now 10s are reported on simply because they're done before the 25s equivalent. Most people don't really care about 10 man world firsts. People's thinking is difficult to change, and this kind of shift would probably piss off more people than it would help. It's clear from reading people's response to this thread.
    Last edited by Astemus; 10-08-2009 at 08:16 AM.
    "Ultimately, making the blanket statement '25m content is harder, period' is at best an overstatement and at worst ignorant drivel." Garrek

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astemus View Post
    If a person disconnects on a 25 man encounter, you've lost 4%. Maybe some fights couldn't be won at 96%, but I guarantee it'd be easier than doing the fight when 1 person disconnects on a 10 man encounter. More people may mean there is an increased risk of a problem, but it also means a decreased handicap for such an event.
    ^ This. I mentioned it before in an earlier post on this thread, too.

    Perhaps the posters who say there is less margin for error are thinking of hard modes, or very specific boss encounters. But in any 25-man that I have been in, 25-man doesn't seem harder; frequently it seems to be quite the opposite. Personally, I have never seen a 25-man encounter that was so finely tuned that a single death means a wipe. That being said, since I have not seen everything there is to see in 25-man versions of content, I will allow that there may be such fights in 25-man. But Some posters make it sound like every fight is like that, and I can say with certainty that this just isn't true.

  7. #107
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    On any tightly tuned encounter 10 or 25 man, the loss of 1 player is gonna cause a failure. Iron Council HM, Firefighter, Heroic Anub'arak, etc.

    These are the fights that Ciderhelm speaks of. In any event, if you lose 4% or 10% you're probably not gonna meet the enrage timers, or the event restrictions. The reason why 25 mans is harder in these cases is that you have a much higher chance of getting 1 out of 25 people to d/c, die to a fire, etc there there is for 10. I think people are missing this point. Yes on some fights like Koralon etc, you can lose a person and keep going, I assure you on the fights that are not trivial, you'll encounter massive headaches over 1/2/3 people disconnecting or failing a retard check.

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Astemus View Post
    There really isn't any room for personal attacks in this thread. This is a theory type discussion, so unless you have something to contribute to that, it's best to not post at all.
    It wasn't a personal attack. What I take offence to is the fact that someone, who has not experienced a whole lot of 25-man content based on the character he has on his account, can bithely state that (and I quote):

    They *have* to hit harder just to compensate for the assumed gear level. Then you add your own argument on top of that and you really do have to ponder whether that aspect of the encounter is really any harder, or perhaps considerably easier, than the 10m variant.
    Yes, there is always room for theorycrafting argument. What the numbers put forward have shown is that the requirement on 25-man heroic modes is higher than that for 10-man heroic modes. However, this is just dismissed as "oh buffs" or "oh you have all classes in a 25man".

    Your example you use to support your argument is Koralon. Freaking Koralon, Mr Loot Pinata, the boss that is put in to appease casual players who found Emalon way too hard. The boss that requires the raid to not stand in fire and heal 2 tanks ... Yes, I'm sure it seems like 25-mans can be easier based on such anecdotal evidence but the truth of the matter is that it's not in most cases.

    Think about a fight like Thaddius in Naxx. Easy on 10-man because you have to organise just 10 people for positive and negative charges and the DPS requirements were substantially lower. Think about it on 25-man (ever been in pugs that can't down it?) where it's a nightmare trying to get 24 other people coordinated AND the dps requirements are higher.

    How about KT and the spreading out of 24 people in his room?

    How about Patchwerk which also had a higher dps requirement for the raid on 25-man?

    Let's move on: Think about the difference between XT hardmode for 10-man vs 25-man. Again, higher dps requirements and more issues in terms of trying to heal the raid through tantrum.

    IC 25-man hardmode vs IC 10-man hardmode: 10-man is significantly easier for the tanks and the DPS because the charge on the tanks last so much longer and the DPS requirement is just plain lower on 10-man.

    Auriaya: see the difference between doing Crazy Cat Lady on 25 vs 10 man (on 25 you need multiple tanks, tank switches on adds while on 10-man you can just have 1 tank pick up Auri and 1 add with an OT on the other add, i.e.no change to the normal raid composition).

    Hodir 10 vs Hodir 25 hardmode: Again, DPS numbers are different.

    Thorim 10 hardmode vs Thorim 25 hardmode: Tanking is a lot harder on 25-man hardmode, DPS requirement is higher and there are spacing issues.

    Sure, you can dispute my account of the above .. but that's my own anecdotal experience + actual differences that matter on these encounters. But at least I have some basis for saying 25-mans are harder as opposed to "Oh, I think 25 mans are easier in theory especially when I haven't done them yet" (critical parts italicised for emphasis).

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    What the numbers put forward have shown is that the requirement on 25-man heroic modes is higher than that for 10-man heroic modes. However, this is just dismissed as "oh buffs" or "oh you have all classes in a 25man".
    Has anyone checked into whether (a) higher tier gear, (b) more buffs/better class/spec representation, doesn't account for the DPS requirement differences? Or if, accounting for increased number of healers, the increased damage the bosses do is disproportionately scaled in 25-man and is truly more difficult to heal?

    Or is all of this anecdotal from both sides of the argument?

    Because in the end, if everyone's arguments are based on subjective observations, I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree.

  10. #110
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    I subscribe to the 4% loss vs 10% loss in 25 vs 10 man theory. That doesn't mean Cider isn't correct in the increased likelyhood of things going sour in 25 from a probability perspective, I just assume somebody dies not to skill but to DCs/etc. at least once. It's basically trivializes his point by setting the probability to 100% instead of high, and accepting it. The caveat is that hard modes (and by consequence, top guilds) never allow this assumption.

    The way I see it

    10 man normal - Starting Point. Some people will be adequately or overgeared, some under. The undergeared people are the ones that tend to die, but the overgeared ones can compensate (10% loss isn't really 10%, it's less). If an overgeared person dies, you are dead (it represents more than a 10% loss).
    25 man normal - Assuming people have geared up completely in 10 man (which isn't always the case) everybody is adequately geared or better. 25 mans appear to be easier because more people tend to be geared and the loss of one person, even an overgeared one, still way less than the loss of a 10 man.
    Any sort of hard mode - any loss (death, subpar performance, DC even if recoverable) leads to a high probabilty of wipe (if not guaranteed). 10 man hard modes are to designed be run while running 25 man normals, and 25 man hard modes after you have 10 man hard completed by 25 people.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Any sort of hard mode - any loss (death, subpar performance, DC even if recoverable) leads to a high probabilty of wipe (if not guaranteed). 10 man hard modes are to designed be run while running 25 man normals, and 25 man hard modes after you have 10 man hard completed by 25 people.
    That's the thing, though: I don't believe blizzard ever said that 10's were intended to be a path to 25-mans. They were intended to be separate paths, but not so disparate that someone in 10's couldn't cross over into 25-man content.

    You can gear up for naxx25 by running naxx10. But you can go into naxx25 with a group in level 80 blues and start clearing content. You can completely ignore 10-man content and just progress through all content in 25-man mode. A 25-man raiding guild that does 10's as well may find it easier to progress, but in the end, 10's are not needed.

    Gear score sites make it look like, for example, Uld10=EoE25, but it's just a gear score. People in 25-man gear will have a higher gear score than people in 10-man because of the difference in ilvl. In short, the gear scoring method of determining readiness is just a way of seeing if a toon's average ilvl is high enough to consider them as "finished" with the previous tier of content. It doesn't speak at all to the actual technical (skill) difficulty of the content.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    Yes, there is always room for theorycrafting argument. What the numbers put forward have shown is that the requirement on 25-man heroic modes is higher than that for 10-man heroic modes. However, this is just dismissed as "oh buffs" or "oh you have all classes in a 25man".
    It's "oh buffs" and "oh gear levels" and "oh situational stuff" (like, say, Thaddius's charge stacks). Two to three factors, and they aren't additive in most cases. But of course, I can't really expect such insight from a 25-man raider who does 10-man in superior gear and likely in very strong group setups more often than not.

    As for your list of encounters which are so much harder in 25-man mode, it hasn't really been disputed that hard modes are tougher in 25s. Where's your argument for normal modes? While I agree that issues like spreading out on KT or coordinating charges on Thaddius raise the bar for 25s, that may well be counterbalanced by the 4% vs 10% argument...

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    I do sort of agree with the OP on that one - while social, logistical and scheduling issues are a difficulty inherent with 25-man raiding, I don't necessarily see that there should be a direct reward for it as it is really out-of-game activities which make or break your success at these things.

    There needs to be an incentive for 25-mans, there is no doubt about it. Whether that's better loot or simply faster loot is up for debate, of course, but it seems pretty unanimous that 25-man raiders should be rewarded for the additional effort in some way.
    I agree with the idea of faster looting.

    If the primary, unavoidable increase in difficulty from 10's to 25's is logistical in nature, then their reward should be logistical in nature. Not quality in nature.

    6 drops per boss base does not sound out of the question if the gear is the same as in 10-mans. You take the pain of herding more cats and succeed...you get more catnip.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    From an earlier post in this thread (posted by Mert):



    This is one example of why, from a pure numbers perspective, 25-mans are harder. Blizzard has decided not to scale it perfectly from 10-mans.

    Case in point: Hodir Hard. In 25-man he has 32.5m HP and the average raid might have, at most, 21 DPS for this encounter. (32.5m / 21) / 180 seconds = 8597.88 DPS each. On 10-man he has 8.4m HP and you'd likely have 7 DPS. (8.4m / 7) / 180 seconds = 6666.66r DPS each. In terms of what's expected of your raiders, it's clear that the 25-man version represents a significant increase in DPS, even if not specifically skill. The difference in gear you get from 25-man against its 10-man equivalent does not make up for such a wide difference in the output required of your raid, so it would typically be something you completed later than the 10-man version. Thorim Normal is another fantastic example of an encounter being far harder on 25-man than 10-man.

    And yes, this means Blizzard can do it, blah blah blah. But that's not the case now and wanting Blizzard to do so requires an entire paradigm shift in raiding yet again.
    Just pointing out something for the hodir example...

    25's needs more DPS per DPSer...

    10-man gets 4 NPCs, not 8.
    10-man takes the same raid damage as 25 from frozen blows (unless wowwiki is wrong).
    10-man takes the same damage from falling ice as 25-man (once again, unless wowwiki is wrong).
    10-man hodir still freezes people in place like 25-man (here wowwiki is wrong making me somewhat doubt the previous two)

    In 25 heroism is assumed rather than a bonus.
    In 25 BoK is assumed rather than a bonus.
    In 25 BoM is assumed rather than a bonus.

    In 25 you can have 19 dps + tank on average in a spotlight compared to 6 + tank in 10 (assuming no spotlights near a fire)

    (I figure you're more likely to have an even spread of physical vs. magic in 25's so singed will even out. For everything else, with 21 DPSers you've got 84% of your raid DPSing vs. 70% in 10's)

    In 25 you're more likely to use 100% of your targets with storm power, and you get 2 of them. In 10 if you have a mix of melee and ranged it can be hard to get all 4 targets with everything going on at once.

    Requirements are higher in 25's on hodir, but it's going to be easier to see those numbers or above. I'd call the DPS requirement difference a wash personally. Don't undervalue the simple strength behind having complete buffs to increase your raid's overall viability. I think many 25-man raiders do that when this topic comes up.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    Has anyone checked into whether (a) higher tier gear, (b) more buffs/better class/spec representation, doesn't account for the DPS requirement differences? Or if, accounting for increased number of healers, the increased damage the bosses do is disproportionately scaled in 25-man and is truly more difficult to heal?

    Or is all of this anecdotal from both sides of the argument?

    Because in the end, if everyone's arguments are based on subjective observations, I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree.
    In 10 man, you have 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 DPS.
    In 25 man, you have 2-3 tanks, 6-7 healers, and 15-17 DPS

    Just to account for the difference in healers and DPS alone, the damage would need to be increased 3 times and the DPS requirements increased 2.5 times from the 10 man encounters. Of course, increasing the hits of bosses 3x would be silly, this usually comes from increases to multiple sources of damage, or mechanics that aren't in the 10 man encounters. Aside from that, the increase in number of buffs available and class synergy in a 25 man adds more requirements to the encounter. So for the difficulty to be equal between both, the requirements for 25s need to be 2-3 times that of a 10s encounter. Add in the increase of about 13 ilvls in average gear requirements, and the encounter would obviously need to be more difficult for 25s. The difference is you're given much more to handle it, so the relative difficulty goes down to about even in general.

    Of course, there are exceptions. Thaddius is a much bigger problem in 25s do to the mechanics of the fight. KT is more difficult due to the number of people and also the added mechanic of MC (not really added, but it was removed from the 10s version). But a fight like Hodir isn't really different between both versions. You have strict DPS requirements for either, and while the logistics of getting max coverage on buffs from the NPCs may be more difficult statistically in 25s, I don't know that it really makes the encounter more difficult because the % of people who need to fully utilize these buffs is less on 25s.

    On the other end, as a 10s raider, there is much more individual responsibility. And while encounters aren't designed to require certain buffs, the chances of one of your 10s raiders having replenishment, or BL/heroism, or even AB or Fort, is far less. Also, the decision to use an extra healer or tank for a certain encounter becomes a much bigger issue. That extra healer will cost you 17% of your DPS total on average in a 10s, and only 7% on 25s. A 3rd tank is pretty uncommon for 10s, but having encounters that require 2 tanks for only a certain portion become an interesting puzzle for a 10s raid, where the 25s raid can afford the 7% loss in DPS to keep that tank around for the small part they play, you can gain enormous benefit by having certain tanks DPS during parts they are not tanking actively, where the benefit for a 25s raid would be so minimal that it's not worth the trouble.

    So while some people may say that it's harder to run a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid, just know that both have their advantages and disadvantages.
    "Ultimately, making the blanket statement '25m content is harder, period' is at best an overstatement and at worst ignorant drivel." Garrek

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    Sure, you can dispute my account of the above .. but that's my own anecdotal experience + actual differences that matter on these encounters. But at least I have some basis for saying 25-mans are harder as opposed to "Oh, I think 25 mans are easier in theory especially when I haven't done them yet" (critical parts italicised for emphasis).
    By the same argument, I could say that you overstate the ease of 10m since you haven't experienced only doing 10s using only 10s gear.

    I will state for the record that I haven't actually even raided anything seriously for several months now (25m OR 10m), and that I am very much approaching this from both a theorycraft and philosophical standpoint. I don't even farm heroics for all the badge gear, though I have acquired a couple pieces through happenstance. Is that enough full disclosure for us to move on and get to the meat of the discussion?

    The examples you provide are technically correct, however have you properly discounted the effects of being fully buffed, using better gear, and having higher attrition to consider? So far, the only irrefutable argument that 25m is harder I've seen is the "one death or d/c means failure regardless of being in 10m or 25m". Attrition plays against you. I get that. I know Archimonde is a staple example of this mechanic and many of the hardmodes exhibit similar requirements in terms of being unable to meet tightly tuned enrage timers, or keeping up with raid healing, or add control, etc.

    I think I'd be willing to concede that 25m Hard is irreconcilably more difficult than 10m Hard simply because they're always specifically tuned to the point where a single point of failure means a wipe. However, I don't think that argument flies as well for for 25m Norm compared to 10m Norm. There are certainly encounters where it's fair to say 25m is still more difficult because of mechanics that play off attrition like on Thaddius, however I'd argue that there are also encounters where 10m is harder because of mechanics that play off a lack of attrition (snares and the like) such as Ignis. For most, I'd argue, the difficulty is likely so close that it's generally a wash.

    So, that said, I propose this compromise (or some derivative):

    25mH (+12 ilvl) > 10mH (+8 ilvl) > 25/10mN (+0 ilvl)

    25m raids still have the potential of chasing after better gear, even with higher frequency, if they chase after hard modes, but otherwise the normal content of both formats offer the same gear but with higher frequency in 25m content.

  17. #117
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    As someone who routinely does 10m and 25m content I can say that the biggest difference in 10 and 25 is almost always making 25 people do their job. For that reason, 25 man content is (in general) harder than 10 man content. That stated, Blizzard has chosen to make 25 man content the *hard* content and so rewards said content with the best gear. I like the most recent model where 25 hard > 10 hard > 25 normal > 10 normal. The ten man hard mode content is pretty challenging for a guild like mine that just made the jump from 10s to 25s (very little time in ulduar 25).

    Blizzard could design the 10 man hard modes to be MUCH harder than 25 man if they wanted to, but I don't see it happening and I think it would require the game to be redesigned. 25 man content can allow for more complexity and that alone means that they will keep placing emphasis on 25s as the hard content.

  18. #118
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    The corrolary to 'hard 25s are harder than 10 because of one screwup' is that 'easy 25s are easier than 10 because one screwup doesn't matter'.

    8-man Naxx-10 was harder than 20-man Naxx-25 for this reason. When the content is easy, 10-mans have a greater impact when one person sucks.

    However, that's not at all what most people are talking about when they say '25 mans are harder than 10'.

  19. #119
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    An example for people having a blanket '25s are tougher than 10s':

    A drives a Toyota.
    B drives a Ferrari.
    Both are expected to beat a race course in x amount of time. B does it without even trying, A does it with some difficulty.

    Doing 10s with 10s gear is like driving a Toyota. You barely get past the time limit, and have to strain your car doing it.

    Doing 10s with 25s gear is like driving a Ferrari. You get past the time limit without even breaking a sweat.

    I don't know about you guys, but I see too many variables coming into play when deciding that 25s are harder than 10s. I definitely would ask those who farm 25s to head into 10s with 10s gear and try it out. It will be a refreshing change, and I hope it would be a challenge so you can see where the '10s faction' is coming from.

    1 point I don't dispute: Like what Ciderhelm and Kaz said, when encounters are tightly tuned (Hell, I went through Archi) 1 death is a wipe and for that kind of fights, your percentage of failing for 25s is 2.5 times higher. Out of all the bosses in a raid though, how many of them have this kind of tight tuning?

    I'm all for the 10s loot should be equal or only slightly less in terms of ilevel compared to 25s. Yes, admittably I'm doing 10s more than 25s now, but I'm pretty sure something else can be worked into the mix (like the proposal for more drops?) for 25s to ensure that the carrot is still available.

    Why are people finding togc25 harder than togc10? Why is togc10 cleared much earlier? Simple. Most groups (if not all) who cleared togc10 had the advantage of toc25 gear (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm writing this based on my observation in my server). Togc25 however, does NOT have that luxury. Toc10 => Togc10 should be about the same jump in difficulty as compared to Toc25 => Togc25.

    Disclaimer: The jump in difficulty is what I theorise to be right. I am saying here, straight off, I have not completed Toc25, let along attempt Togc25. However, please do not fixate on that as my point is Togc10 being cleared by Toc25 geared people is hardly a fair point in saying '10s is easier than 25s'.

  20. #120
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    I don't know about you guys, but I see too many variables coming into play when deciding that 25s are harder than 10s. I definitely would ask those who farm 25s to head into 10s with 10s gear and try it out. It will be a refreshing change, and I hope it would be a challenge so you can see where the '10s faction' is coming from.
    It comes from knowing people who do strict 10s who also do 25s on other toons or have done serious raiding on 25s before.

    Really, it's not that hard to figure out. Gear isn't nearly as important as skill is in all but the barest of encounters.

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