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Thread: Hard modes and the problem of raid size

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    Gear from the larger raids trivializes smaller raid content. If this were prevented, you'd be able to value 10m progression substantially more than currently. 10m raiding has the capacity to be epic in scope similar to 25m raiding, if the designers wanted it to.

    Then there are the players who want to raid both 10m and 25m content. If they are primarily geared via 10m raiding, they are undergeared compared to other 25m raiders on the same content. That's a disadvantage which restricts the flexibility of the player wanting to switch things around.

    Also, the age-old concern of where you can use this gear is revisited. If gear from 10/25m raiding was only usable in that particular endeavor/raidsize, there would be no conflict. But you can use that gear to make your character better at lots of other activities (solo, 5mans, PvP), not just killing bosses at that specific raid size. With dedicated PvP gearing, this is less of a concern than it once was. However it's still important to consider, particularly with respect to weapon itemization.
    But it doesn't matter what gear I have compared to what you have. Whether I feel 10-man raiding is epic or not because of my 25 man gear is irrelevant to how you feel (or should be irrelevant). If you think that your 10-man raid is having the most epic time of all time, what I do doesn't affect you in any way. That's the point that is constantly lost in the constant requests for 10mans to equal 25mans.

    The only reason why it's an issue is because of e-peen imo. It's because a raider wants to be able to say that he's better than someone else ... and this is primarily achieved by the speed at which content is cleared. I'm still waiting for a 10-man raider to concede that is the real point behind these requests.

    As for things like solo'ing or 5 mans .. c'mon, are you really going to say that raid level gear should be equalised so that a 10-man raider can solo things or clear a 5-man instance as fast a 25-man raider? Once you go down that route, then a solo player should be able to demand equal access to the gear... because it's blatantly unfair to him that he can't solo things as well as someone who raids 10-mans! It's exactly the same argument, only now it's a difference between a 1-player raid and a 10-man raid.

    PvP? Not even close to being relevant to the discussion in most situations.

    I'll say it again: What gear X has doesn't impact Y's raiding experience .. unless Y chooses to make it an issue.

    A lot of this discussion also revolves around how 10-mans can be as difficult as 25-mans. On a theoretical level, I think that argument is kinda true ... but only kind of. Yes, you can make dps requirements the same for both encounters. Yes you can ramp up difficulty in 10-mans so that it's equal to 25-mans. But that doesn't take into consideration the fact that:

    1) balancing it around 10-players is hard, not just for Blizzard but for raids. If every 10-man raid had to have X ability for a boss, say heroism, then you suddenly have a situation where specific classes are absolutely required. That gives rise to a whole different set of issues;

    2) at the same time, having less players also makes it that much harder to design content, as SWP examples have shown.

    Final point: No one is forcing anyone to do anything they do not want to do. 10-man raiders have their own route of progression if that's what they want to restrict themselves to. They do NOT have to do 25-mans if they choose not to and there is no requirement that they should to clear 10-man content.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    This is the bit I'm going to object to.

    You are quantifying your effort as being more or at least equal to that of a 25-man raider and therefore you are entitled to the same gear.
    ...
    You made a choice to raid in 10-mans for reasons I can applaud. Not raiding with idiots is a really really good choice. But that was YOUR choice. It wasn't forced on to you. Give the same courtesy to others and not try to create a system that caters strictly to your choice/preference.
    You're right to say my points were overly simplistic in favor of 10s. They were meant as a reply to Kamani, who only pointed out ways in which 10s are easier than 25s. While I do clearly favor 10s personally, and I admitted that, my intent was to point out that either version could be the harder option or both could be truly equal if the designers decided to make that distinction. None of your points clearly demonstrate to me why 25-man raiding *has to be* harder and more rewarding than 10s.

    #1- I never made the claim that 25-man raids were "retardedly easy". You can pug both 10 and 25 normal modes right now. This doesn't point to either being significantly harder or easier.

    #2- I don't get to cherry pick my top 10 raiders. We're a 10-man raiding guild, as I said. I'm lucky if I have 11 people online for raids. You're looking at 10s from the perspective of a 25 raider. From my perspective, I have 10 capable players who want to see the same content at the same difficulty without putting up with the negatives of a larger guild. Why does that imply that we need an easy mode with inferior rewards?

    #3- I have to question your claim that 10s are easier just because your 10 best raiders can clear H ToC 10. You're clearly cherry picking your top performers, and I assume they're all using superior 25-man gear. Again, a dedicated 10-man guild doesn't have either of those luxuries.

    #4- You're right, of course. Which items drop in your raid has nothing at all to do with what drops in my raid. Likewise, what drops in my raid has nothing to do with yours.

    Let's drop the e-peen debate right here. Bliz didn't limit people to running one raid or the other. Some people want to run 25s with friends once in a while, or try a pug to see if they can get better gear, or help out their friends in their 10-man run. For every situation that's not an exclusive guild raid, we're in direct competition with others in different gear levels, despite the fact that we may be running the same content. In every one of those cases the 25-geared player has a clear advantage, whether they're a tank, dps, or healer. Do I need to remind everyone which stat every single pug uses to pick a MT?

    So why make a distinction? It only creates an artificial separation between the two modes, on top of the actual difficulty of hard modes, and further prevents 10-man raiders from reaching the same potential as 25 raiders. Why does the desire to improve your character to the same potential as others have to be negatively labeled as e-peen? The entire PVE game (as well as PVP) is all about success through performance, and character stats play a significant part in that.

    Finally, law90026: Please explain how equal raid loot, assuming balanced difficulty levels, caters strictly to my preference while the current system of greater rewards for 25s does NOT cater strictly to your choice/preference. Would it gear me up more quickly than you? Would it make raiding easier for me than for you? Would it allow me to exceed your performance in some way? Or would it just put us on equal ground, and in the process improve the pool of recruits for every raiding guild?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    The only reason why it's an issue is because of e-peen imo. It's because a raider wants to be able to say that he's better than someone else ... and this is primarily achieved by the speed at which content is cleared. I'm still waiting for a 25-man raider to concede that is the real point behind denying these requests.
    Fixed. See how that works? I'll admit to e-peen jealousy if you'll admit it's the reason you want to keep your better gear. Otherwise let's move the discussion forward and discuss the topic presented: why 10-man raids have to be easier and/or less rewarding than 25s.

  4. #44
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    To play Devil's Advocate for a second, if they were to completely and totally equalise the loot drops, how many people would say it's unfair that 25-man guilds get two chances at the loot per week whereas 10-man guilds have only one?

    Honestly, not necessarily from anyone who has posted in this thread of course, I can see a "25 and 10 mans should share a lockout so it's fair" thread in the future should this happen.



  5. #45
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    That would be relatively easy to amend without shared lockout. You could have a system in place that lets players be eligible for loot from boss X once every week, shared across the different raid sizes. An option to deliberately make yourself uneligible for looting is already in the game, even.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorina View Post
    Do I need to remind everyone which stat every single pug uses to pick a MT?
    For all the "casualization," accessibility, welfare, whatever you want to call it, that blizz has put in so that more players reach and experience the endgame content, at NO point in time has blizzard ever made any moves that support pugging OVER raiding with a guild. Many moves benefit both, but the concept of bringing your team of friends has been a key design element, especially in Wrath.

    Lest people forget, raids used to be 40 man. Most of you know the history from there - blizz decided that 40 people was too hard for a lot of players to get together, so they cut the requirement down to 25 to increase accessibility. The carnage that ensued from effectively having to cut 15 teammates for no reason was a nightmare. So when the cutdown STILL didn't have the desired effect, despite the availability of welfare epics, the dropping of attunements, and the extraordinary advantages provided to a new raider at the end of TBC, it was watered down AGAIN, so you could do purely 10 man content.

    Don't forget those. These have been compromises made by the designers, arguably pretty hardcore players themselves, for the benefit of a great number of more casual players. They've scaled back the skill, time, and dedication requirements immensely. And yet it seems everyone still wants more.

    10 man raiding was made for the casual player, and made with a compromise because of it. As much fun as hard modes are for those of us who still wish we had epic, attuned 40 man raids, they're a watered down version of what we used to get. Every single development in raiding has been to the benefit of the newer or more casual player.

    God forbid blizzard EVER tune the game design around what pugs, in their infinite wisdom, choose to do. You might not want to put too much stock in it either.

  7. #47
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    I don't care about the 13-ilvl difference, I'm fine with that being for the organizational overhead, etc. Yes, the loot whores will always raid 25s for the better gear. That's fine with me. That means I'm not raiding with them.

    The one piece that pisses me off on 10 vs 25, is that the 10-man normals are denied the patterns and the orbs that 25-man normal gets tons of.

    I understand that the patterns that drop now are <25-man ilvl>. I don't care if they make <10-man ilvl> versions of the patterns that require <different orbs> that only drop in 10-man normal. I just want 10-man and 25-man to be truly equal, other than the 13-ilvl difference, because right now, they are not.

    i.e. a 25-man pug can get non-gear things that a dedicated 10-man raider can't get before hard modes/heroic mode. IMO, that's wrong.

    The reason this is important to me? For example, my elemental/resto shaman has no mail bracers other than the crafted ones in ToC. However, as a dedicated 10-man raider, I have no way to get patterns in 10-man normal to fix this, or to get orbs, while a 25-man normal-mode pug can. I have to go to 10-man heroic to get any of that at all. Sure, I can spend emblems on orbs, but, why should I have to when 25-mans get them on drops in normal mode?

    I think that one of two things should be done about this: Either make it equal with 10-man normal getting their version of these patterns, or take them away from the 25-man normal modes. If you fix this, then I think it will be equal finally, with a tier difference for organizational headaches.
    Last edited by mavfin; 09-29-2009 at 01:07 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    Yes, the loot whores will always raid 25s for the better gear. That's fine with me. That means I'm not raiding with them.
    Really? Is that really needed. You say that I am a lootwhore because I prefer 25's? Why?

    I could say everyone that raids 10's smells funny, has bad acne, and can't get a date. It means just about as much sense as what you said....which is no sense at all.

    Both types of raiders made choices. You knew going in that you would not be on an equal gear footing. Accept your choices or make a change. Nothing in life is fair. There are infinite threads on these boards that talk about this fairness....it does not exist. IThat is the problem with peoples mindset. A sense of entitlement is a bad thing sometimes. I hope you have a better game experience.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dormungus View Post
    Really? Is that really needed. You say that I am a lootwhore because I prefer 25's? Why?
    I did not say that all 25-man people are lootwhores. You made that assumption.

    Many simply prefer that format. However, lootwhores exist in raiding, and they're raiding 25-mans for the 13-ilvls better loot, so they're not in my 10-man raids.

    Way to overreact.

    We did not know going in that we would be denied equality in crafted gear patterns. We did know going in that 25-mans would have 13 ilvls better gear. As I said, I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is the inequality in crafting patterns/orbs.
    Last edited by mavfin; 09-29-2009 at 02:47 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    The one piece that pisses me off on 10 vs 25, is that the 10-man normals are denied the patterns and the orbs that 25-man normal gets tons of.
    That is my biggest annoyance with the situation as well.

  11. #51
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    We can argue back and forth until we are blue in the face, however at the end of the day the fact of the matter is that 10 man content IS easier and 25 man content IS harder. Given the difficulty disparity the loot differences are justified.

  12. #52
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    Point of discussion: Are 10m Hard modes more, less, or equally difficult than 25m Norm modes? Shoud('nt) they? Does that conclusion justify the current equal ilvl allocations?



    Notwithstanding the my answer to that, I truly believe the way loot is handled at this point ranges somewhere between wonky and sadistic. At any given "tier" of raiding, there's basically three tiers worth of gear to build sets from. Furthermore, the different tiers of gear available in the different raid formats/difficulties are varied so much in terms of itemization and/or what pieces are available for upgrades that proper min-maxing often incorporates pieces from multiple tiers. Another problem that Blizzard has openly admitted is the speed at which they're increasing ilvl with the advent of hard modes in Ulduar. I'll get back to this in just a moment, so just keep it at the edge of your mind.

    To answer my original question, I do believe 10m Hard modes to be undeniably more difficult to overcome than their 25m Norm mode counterparts and should therefore be given better ilvl. Having lead 25s in the past, I can say 25s are harder, but only marginally so. What's more, the added difficulty has little to do with added/strengthened mechanics as those exist primarily to offset the added attrition and assumed buffs, debuffs, and slightly higher gear ilvl associated with running 25s. The added difficulty is almost entirely in the communication and organization of the raid. Given the current itemization trends, how would I rate a sufficient reward for that added headache? Maybe about 6 ilvls worth at the most; more likely 4 or 5.

    What I would propose to cover the bases of everything I've mentioned are the following:

    • The loot tables for 10m and 25m format raids in both regular and hard difficulties offer the exact same loot in terms of name and general stat allocation.
    • Based on the format and difficulty chosen, extra ilvls would be applied to the gear almost as if an ilvl enchant existed. 10m(+0) > 25m(+4/5) > 10mH(+8) > 25mH(+12/13)
    This accomplishes several things:
    • Most significantly, gear evolves much more slowly. Each tier of content released is kept within a "tier's worth" of potential ilvls unless the devs specifically alter the tier level of the encounter (like KT vs. the rest of Naxx).
    • Differences between gear from the various raid formats is somewhat marginalized, improving situations where gear-based decisions within co-mingled groups are made (i.e. mostly PuGs, but they can happen often enough within guilds too)
    • Puts more focus on the prestige of the achievements than gear that was attained by doing so (barring specialty prestige items like mounts for exceptionally difficult achievements/meta-achievements). Gear gets improved, but not drastically so effectively diffusing any "loot whore" behavior associated with doing anything beyond 10m normal.
    • Potentially less development required for establishing loot tables since the loot mostly stays the same within any given tier of content. Furthermore, min/maxing becomes easier to work on across raid configurations. The same gear will work best (generally speaking) at the 10m level as the 25mH level; only that the stats will have proportionately increased.
    The only downside I could see is the possible monotony of the names of items, but then again we already deal with the monotony of exceedingly dull copies and reskins of the same models as other items we might attain.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyseh View Post
    We can argue back and forth until we are blue in the face, however at the end of the day the fact of the matter is that 10 man content IS easier and 25 man content IS harder. Given the difficulty disparity the loot differences are justified.
    That is not the fact of the matter, though. First, not only is your claim not absolutely true (10-hard is definitely noticeably harder than 25-normal), but past experience shows us that 10s could be just as hard as 25s, if Blizzard chose to balance them in that way.

    Any disparities in difficulty between 10- and 25- right now do exist. I'm not ignoring them. However, they are not inherent to those raid sizes, and if Blizzard chose, we could see 10s and 25s of equal difficulty. Raid difficulty, then, is not a fair argument for loot disparity, because the raid difficulty can be evened.

    All that is inherently true is the logistical difficulty increase from 10s to 25s. That isn't worth the kind of gear increase they're getting, though. Running a 25-man raid simply isn't that much harder than a 10-man to be able to justify the same gear separation as we have from normal to hard modes.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by visualdeity View Post
    That is not the fact of the matter, though. First, not only is your claim not absolutely true (10-hard is definitely noticeably harder than 25-normal), but past experience shows us that 10s could be just as hard as 25s, if Blizzard chose to balance them in that way.
    With the exception of Sarth 3D, which was an accident rather than intended, I can't think of an instance that's available in both 10 and 25-man flavours that is harder on 10-man, at least not outside of a boss or two. Of course it's unfair to compare, say, Karazahn to Maggy becuase who's to know whether the 25-man version of Kara wouldn't have been harder? And, to my mind at least, WotLK 10-man content has almost exclusively been easier than its 25-man counterpart.

    I honestly believe that with current buffs etc, the need to balance a fight around the assumption that you can't have everything in a 10-man will mean 10-mans always sit slightly easier for a decent raid composition (and most raiding guilds will pay attention to their raid composition when forming teams). I don't necessarily disagree that 10 and 25-man should be as hard as each other, but I don't think it's enough to simply state that Blizzard has thus far simply chosen not to - I don't think it can ever realistically be as easy as that without further spreading of class buffs etc.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorina View Post
    You're right to say my points were overly simplistic in favor of 10s. They were meant as a reply to Kamani, who only pointed out ways in which 10s are easier than 25s. While I do clearly favor 10s personally, and I admitted that, my intent was to point out that either version could be the harder option or both could be truly equal if the designers decided to make that distinction. None of your points clearly demonstrate to me why 25-man raiding *has to be* harder and more rewarding than 10s.
    I think this is the crux of the matter (to some extent). I don't disagree that 10-man raiding can be as hard as 25-man raiding. The key point here is: "can be".

    The converse is also true: Nothing anyone has said illustrates why 10-man raiding "should be" as hard or harder or more rewarding than 25-mans ... other than the fact that some people prefer to only raid 10-mans.

    If you can accept this line of reasoning, then it really just boils down to what some people want vs what others want. However, I will also argue that it becomes more complex when it comes to what a 10-man raider wants.

    Issue 1: Rationale for 10-mans

    Let's try and be clear about why 10-man raiding was created. It was meant to cater to the immense complaints about how 40-man raid content was too difficult, required too many people and excluded a whole bunch of people. Same complaints arose when 25-man raiding came about.

    History lesson: In the past, there was a very very clear difference in 10 man vs 25 man. The instances were different and it was true that 10man guilds/raiders were screwed over. They had no option to see ALL the content in the game besides joining a bigger raid/guild or pugging (lol).

    But that has all changed now. 10-man content is exactly the same as 25-man content. Exactly the same in terms of what you see, what storyline you participate in ... the only difference is the loot drops. Even the mechanics of the fights are largely the same, except that 25-man content tends to hit harder and/or is less forgiving.

    If you can accept that 10-man raiding was created to address the issue of access to content, then the problem has already been solved.

    Issue 2: Sometimes, access is not enough

    I've alluded to this point already. It's not no longer sufficient for 10-man content to provide access to the content. Now it's about how the gear drops are different. And the basis for equality now is that "we put in as much effort as you do".

    This is false on at least 1 level. I realise that it's easy to discount the logistical issue behind organising 25-man raids .. but it's a pain in the ass. For anyone who has never done it before, it gets harder, not easier, just because the raid size becomes larger. I have no idea how my old raid leaders handled 40man raids and I take my hat off to them.

    Second, it's already been proven that, based on current content, 25-mans are harder than 10-mans.

    Issue 3: But what if 10-mans are harder?

    If Blizzard, in its infinite wisdom, decides that 10-mans should be the hardest content in the game, so be it. But, I think enough has been said by other posters why there are some inherent difficulties in making 10-man content harder.

    Essentially, you need to redesign every fight so that:
    a) from a numbers perspective, 10-man raiding requires higher numbers (which then leads to problems like the necessity of having EVERY raid buff in the raid to meet such requirements);
    b) the mechanics that are found in 25-man raids (multiple tanks, etc) would need to carry over to 10-man encounters. Essentially, we're looking at 10-man Sarth all over again, which is a poor design.

    Here's the next issue though: Once you go down the road that 10-man content can be as hard or harder than 25-man content, where do you stop? What happens when the WoW population decides that 10-man content is too many people (continuing the nerf from 40 to 25 to 10). Should 5 then become the new cut-off? Because Oculus was pretty damn hard when it first came out. Maybe that should be the new raid design, i.e. 5 man raids? Or how about 3? Or maybe solo raid content! It's an endless spiral downwards.

    Issue 4: Push vs Pull

    Right now, a dedicated 10-man raider has no real issues with just focusing on 10-man content. He has the gear required to do the encounters. There is a set of 10-man achievements available. There is 1 Pull factor though: the loot in 25-mans is better. In essence, all things being equal, people get to choose whether they want to do 10s or 25s largely based on loot

    Flip it around though to a situation where 10s drop equivalent or better loot. I would argue that such a design decision funnels people towards doing 10-mans. Why?

    a) it would likely be easier to gear up in a 10-man (less people to share loot with, less requirements for DKP, etc);
    b) not having to deal with 24 other people, instead of just 9 (seriously, too many people discount this point. There's a reason why some 10-man guilds focus only on 10man content);
    c) logistically so much easier. Guilds can be smaller, it's easier to recruit for 10-man raids as compared to 25-man raids.

    What you would have is a situation where 10-man content becomes so much more desirable that 25-mans can probably be cancelled going forward.

    As the OP himself said in one of his posts:

    es, 25-man raider population will probably decrease. Probably noticeably. That's not bad, though. It's merely the result of making the options equal, and people free to choose their preferred raid size without other factors. I know that there will be those who field two 10-man raids because it's logistically easier. That's not ideal, but I think it may be an unavoidable consequence of giving players choice. Any time we give the players choice, there are those who pick the "best" option no matter what they would truly prefer to do. Right now, people may be raiding 25s if they prefer 10s because they want better gear. In the future, people may raid 10s if they prefer 25s because they see it as easier. In the end, no matter what you do, some people will feel pressured to pick an option that goes against their true preference.
    These suggestions are meant to make 10-man raiding more attractive, when really, there is no need to do so. It always comes back to the mantra: it's YOUR choice what you want to do in game.

    #3- I have to question your claim that 10s are easier just because your 10 best raiders can clear H ToC 10. You're clearly cherry picking your top performers, and I assume they're all using superior 25-man gear. Again, a dedicated 10-man guild doesn't have either of those luxuries.
    It's already been proven before that 10s are easier, purely from a numbers point.

    Let's drop the e-peen debate right here. Bliz didn't limit people to running one raid or the other. Some people want to run 25s with friends once in a while, or try a pug to see if they can get better gear, or help out their friends in their 10-man run. For every situation that's not an exclusive guild raid, we're in direct competition with others in different gear levels, despite the fact that we may be running the same content. In every one of those cases the 25-geared player has a clear advantage, whether they're a tank, dps, or healer. Do I need to remind everyone which stat every single pug uses to pick a MT?
    So basically, 10mans should drop equivalent gear to let 10man raiders get into PuGs easily. Right.

    So why make a distinction? It only creates an artificial separation between the two modes, on top of the actual difficulty of hard modes, and further prevents 10-man raiders from reaching the same potential as 25 raiders. Why does the desire to improve your character to the same potential as others have to be negatively labeled as e-peen? The entire PVE game (as well as PVP) is all about success through performance, and character stats play a significant part in that.
    What potential are we talking about? To be the very best in game? That's something a lot of us are never ever going to be.

    If you look at potential as a sliding scale, some will maybe reach 100% and these are your top-end raiders. A whole bunch of players might never even reach 50% because they are totally casual. I sometimes snigger when I see people recruiting for Naxx guilds ... but you know what? For them, Naxx might be the furthest they can get and they will never ever reach their "top" potential in terms of gear.

    Should we therefore adjust everything so that everyone has equal access to all gear? I mean, why should it be differentiated by tiers of content? Why can't Naxx drop the same gear as ToC or Ulduar?

    A character needs to be as good as he can be relative to the content he is focused on. Outside of that, potential becomes irrelevant because those extra stats aren't strictly necessary for the content he is doing. Well other than being able to register larger critical hits I guess for your statistics.

    Finally, law90026: Please explain how equal raid loot, assuming balanced difficulty levels, caters strictly to my preference while the current system of greater rewards for 25s does NOT cater strictly to your choice/preference. Would it gear me up more quickly than you? Would it make raiding easier for me than for you? Would it allow me to exceed your performance in some way? Or would it just put us on equal ground, and in the process improve the pool of recruits for every raiding guild?
    Your assumption is that everything can be balanced (which I would dispute but apparently there's no way to convince you otherwise). If content was exactly the same in terms of difficulty, I would have no issues with the gear drops being exactly the same.

    However, that's not the case. What these threads are essentially about is that easier content (10-mans) should drop the same gear as harder content (25-mans).

    When Blizzard comes out to say that 10-mans will be identical to 25-mans, I'll throw my support in behind you.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by visualdeity View Post
    All that is inherently true is the logistical difficulty increase from 10s to 25s. That isn't worth the kind of gear increase they're getting, though. Running a 25-man raid simply isn't that much harder than a 10-man to be able to justify the same gear separation as we have from normal to hard modes.
    I think this is one of my major peeves when it comes to such posts.

    Anytime a social structure gets larger, it becomes harder to manage. It's insulting to say that "oh it's really not that much harder to run a 25 man raid compared to a 10man raid".

    a) Recruitment/startup: It's a pain in the ass to startup and recruit for a 25-man guild that is serious about raiding, unless you're maybe one of the top guilds on the server. 25-man guilds dont' just magically appear overnight;
    b) logistics: a 25-man guild needs to build a schedule that can fit 30-35 people ... not 10. This can be an organisational nightmare;
    c) raids with 24 other people: this gets more complex from a social perspective as the numbers increase. X doesn't like Y. Y doesn't like Z. A is whining about loot again. B wants to leave early because he has to work tomorrow. Etc etc. Sure, a 10man guild faces similar issues but, at the same time, it's 9 people vs 24 people.

  17. #57
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    I do sort of agree with the OP on that one - while social, logistical and scheduling issues are a difficulty inherent with 25-man raiding, I don't necessarily see that there should be a direct reward for it as it is really out-of-game activities which make or break your success at these things.

    Having said that, even if 10-man raiding could ensure all buffs and could have the exact same DPS, tank and healing requirements, it's simply more complex to get 25 people to move and operate properly than it is to get 10 people to. You could then tune 10-man to be slightly stricter in terms of numbers but I honestly don't see that working. Firstly, balance can only therefore be perceived and people can only be subjective about which is harder (10-man is harder on paper, 25-man is harder from a leadership point of view) and, secondly, how much would we be willing to give up in terms of class uniqueness etc for 10-man to be "equal" at all?

    There needs to be an incentive for 25-mans, there is no doubt about it. Whether that's better loot or simply faster loot is up for debate, of course, but it seems pretty unanimous that 25-man raiders should be rewarded for the additional effort in some way. I personally don't mind either faster looting or, if it's an iLevel solution like we have now, I'd like to see at least some of the loot have the same distribution of iLevel budget between 10 and 25-man versions, even if the latter has an extra 5.1% on all stats or whatever.



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dormungus
    You had some decent points about content but you turned me off with the I'm not a loot whore....people who raid 25's are loot whores....I want equal loot....but I'm not a loot whore mantra
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say all 25-man raiders are loot whores, just that those who raid both 25s and 10s exclusively for the loot are but myeh... in hindsight, i guess i overdid that part.
    The reason i'd like equal loot is that i want to be taken seriously by Blizzard as a dedicated 10-man-only raider. I doesn't feel like they do currently. I'd like to have access to the same difficulty of content as the 25-man players and thus be awarded accordingly. Some have argued that to be impossible by design, some have argued it isn't, I don't know. I guess 12-man would be a more appropriate 'small raid' format to include all class buffs for hard modes, so normal modes can stay 'take whoever you like'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dormungus
    I believe the 10man "by choice" only raiders are a very very small group.
    Perhaps you're right, there might not be enough players like me - recruiting even 1 alike-minded player of the needed class or role takes ages indeed - to make it worthwhile for Blizzard to accommodate for us.

    I truly thought 10-man hard mode was meant for guilds like mine, but I now realize it is not, we're just along on somebody else's ride, creating our own imaginary challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin
    I don't care about the 13-ilvl difference, I'm fine with that being for the organizational overhead, etc. Yes, the loot whores will always raid 25s for the better gear. That's fine with me. That means I'm not raiding with them.
    An advantage i overlooked. And after reading all the other comments in the thread, I guess it's fair 25s get better loot for the extra organizational efforts. I'm switching from 'gear should match encounter difficulty' to 'it's ok for gear to match both encounter and organizational difficulty'. I'm still in the opinion that the ecounter difficulty of 10-man hard mode outweighs the organizational difficulty of 25-man normal though, yet 10-man hard mode raiders are denied several benefits the 25-man normal players enjoy as mentioned earlier, e.g. trophies, orbs, recipes. That, combined with the dumbening down of 10-mans as the 'lesser form of raiding' is what I called 'screwing the dedicated 10-man raiders'.
    And i'm afraid it'll always remain the 'lesser form of raiding' if the rewards are worse, but it's kind of impossible to bring the same organizational challenges to 10-man to warrant equal hard mode loot, although fitting in all raid buffs in a 10-man group, does that count?
    Last edited by Síhrtogg; 10-01-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    41
    The main argument that people keep bringing up about 25 mans being harder is because you have to maintain the higher number of people, and their egos and get them to play well. That is not a game mechanic. If we carry the thinking that 25 idiots is harder than 10 idiots to control, the a successful AV should give the best gear in the game because your have 40 idiots in the group instead of 25...

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by law90026 View Post
    It's already been proven before that 10s are easier, purely from a numbers point.
    I would love to see these numbers... Everyone keeps posting about them but i have never come across them.

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