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Thread: Hard modes and the problem of raid size

  1. #181
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    I have noticed a few problems with the 10/25 + hardmode paradigm.

    1) Its hard to get raiders to commit to a 10 man run. It is very easy for people to just see 10 man as "junior varsity" or "relax mode" or "gear up for 25s". Its not like how ZA was, when you were expected to perform your best and fill a roster slot every week, even if it was a 10 man.

    2) When new content comes out, it causes the obsolescence of the previous tier's end bosses and hard modes. Here's a hard mode you could do, or here's a normal mode 10 of the next tier - they drop the same ilvl loot, which one is going to be run and which one is going to be abandoned?

    10 mans need to either be unique dungeons, or they need to drop something you can't get in 25 man runs, or they need to drop equivalent ilvl gear. Then running 10 mans might feel like more of an option and less like you're babysitting the junior varsity team until they can make it to the varsity squad next week.

  2. #182
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    I have noticed a few problems with the 10/25 + hardmode paradigm.

    1) Its hard to get raiders to commit to a 10 man run. It is very easy for people to just see 10 man as "junior varsity" or "relax mode" or "gear up for 25s". Its not like how ZA was, when you were expected to perform your best and fill a roster slot every week, even if it was a 10 man.

    2) When new content comes out, it causes the obsolescence of the previous tier's end bosses and hard modes. Here's a hard mode you could do, or here's a normal mode 10 of the next tier - they drop the same ilvl loot, which one is going to be run and which one is going to be abandoned?

    10 mans need to either be unique dungeons, or they need to drop something you can't get in 25 man runs, or they need to drop equivalent ilvl gear. Then running 10 mans might feel like more of an option and less like you're babysitting the junior varsity team until they can make it to the varsity squad next week.
    Well, you're talking from the viewpoint of people who are running 25's regularly, rather than someone who just wants to run 10-mans, which are two completely different things. If you don't want to run 10s, then don't. You won't miss anything by not doing so. Since you're running 25-mans regularly, you have few loot holes, and you have your patterns and orbs in easy mode. Everything is there for you in one package.

    I run 10-mans because I like the format, and I like running with 9 of my friends, rather than 24 people I had to recruit to fill in the numbers. I run 10s so I don't have to deal with people who think like your fellow raiders do, actually. Junior varsity? No. I have run 25-man raids, and 40-man raids, and I'm no JV player. People with the mindset that 10-man raiders by choice are 'lesser raiders' are welcome to their illusions, and I'm happy they're running 25s with you, and not in my 10-man raids where I have to hear them whine.

    Also, if your raiders won't do hard modes because they can get higher ilvl loot somewhere else, that tells me what they're raiding for: loot first. You're welcome to those raiders, too. That's one of the reasons I *like* the ilvl split. It keeps some of those raiders out of my raids, since they can't get the same loot in 10-mans.

    And no, making 10-mans different dungeons sends us back to the BC model, where you had to raid 25s to see all the content, while 10s only saw some of it. The parallel model lets a lot more guilds see the content, and that's why Blizzard set it up that way.

    TL;DR: The problems you're seeing are with your raiders and their egos, not with the way Blizzard has done 10/25.

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    I have noticed a few problems with the 10/25 + hardmode paradigm.
    Some of those issues arise for any guild that doesn't complete all of the hard modes, whether it is 10s or 25s. The new stuff is out and they wanna go do that instead.

    As for how 10s are perceived, yes if you run 25s, what is the point really, aside from farming for a specific item to fill a loot hole, in running 10s? The only other reason I can think of is to bang out achievements that you can't yet get in 25s. And while some (including myself) feel a little cheapened by that, it's really the same thing as doing Glory of the Hero achieves while wearing T9. I suppose the folks who don't get to raid feel a bit cheated by that, too. I got over it.

    People who feel that they don't want the social/organizational complexity of 25s will stick to 10s and be happy with it. People who would really rather be doing 25s should definitely go do that instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    10 mans need to either be unique dungeons, or they need to drop something you can't get in 25 man runs, or they need to drop equivalent ilvl gear. Then running 10 mans might feel like more of an option and less like you're babysitting the junior varsity team until they can make it to the varsity squad next week.
    Making them unique content would just put us back to BC as far as raiding issues go; not as many people would get to see the content in some format. In BC, after farming kara, my guild had about a month where we were able to do 25s. We did Mag and Gruul a few times, and then it just kind of... fell apart. This guy got a new job, this other guy vanished in a puff of smoke, etc., etc. And then we were stuck. We could farm kara for more badge gear, and we could do ZA, and that was about it. What held the guild together, in part, was the knowledge that we'd be able to do 10s for all the wotlk content. If they hadn't made that decision, it would have killed the guild. We all liked playing together, liked the way the guild was run, and it would have been sad if we had to disband.
    Last edited by Bashal; 10-22-2009 at 07:32 AM.

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