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Thread: Hard modes and the problem of raid size

  1. #1
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    Hard modes and the problem of raid size

    (I posted this to the official WoW forums as well, but I'm interested to see what the [generally far more civilized] community here has to say, since I fully expect to get trolled to death on the official forums.)

    I just wanted to take a moment to collect a thought that's been rattling around in my head, and hopefully plant a seed in the minds of the designers (if they aren't already planning something like this for Cataclysm).

    When WotLK was first announced, one of the major innovations that it brought to us was that all raids would have the option for both 10 and 25 players. Guilds of all shapes and sizes rejoiced, as they would finally be able to experience the content they desired, in the format that fit their guild's needs. Choice, Blizzard proclaimed, was the motto in WotLK. Now which path you took to experience the raid was purely a personal choice, not a restriction imposed by the game. All was well.

    In 3.1, with the release of Ulduar, we saw a further innovation in WoW's raid design: hard modes (technically, Sartharion introduced hard modes, but Ulduar fully embraced this concept). This was presented as (and I feel truly is) a viable solution to the age-old problem of casuals vs. hardcore. Those who are of lesser ability, or simply hang out in-game with people of lesser ability, didn't see their access to the content hampered by lack of ability. Those who craved a stiff challenge from their raiding experience could opt for the hard modes, and be rewarded for their dedication with more powerful gear. Again, all was well... or sort of.

    The problem that many have complained about with the advent of hard modes is content recycling. Why, they ask, should we consider the same bosses, only tuned harder, to be new content? Well, technically, you shouldn't. They're intended to be the equivalent of a difficulty selection screen at the beginning of a game: no one in their right mind would argue that playing Metal Gear Solid on a harder difficulty is, or is intended to be, new content. It's simply the same game, but requires you to play at a higher level.

    There is a kernel of a real problem here, though: hard modes have been tuned with the requirement that you have a reasonably high amount of the normal mode gear (or, I suppose, the appropriate skill to compensate, but it's generally accepted that you have to spend some time gearing up in Ulduar before you can tackle Ulduar's hard modes). Now, we have a problem which I truly can understand: no one wants to spend a few months gearing up in the normal mode, only to be able to then attempt the hard mode, and then farming gear from the hard modes once you get them down. That's simply too much boss farming for most people's tastes, and I can certainly understand that.

    The answer, one might think, is very simple and straightforward. If we move around the gear requirement for hard modes, then there's no issue. In principle, I agree with this. Similar to what was talked about with the advent of Ulduar (and 10- vs 25-man gear): normal mode gear from the previous tier should be required for normal mode, hard mode gear from the previous tier should be required for hard mode. With this change, guilds could instantly jump into the raid at the difficulty level of their choice (assuming they geared up in the last raid). Since hard mode gear is essentially a tier above the normal mode, normal mode gear from the current raid will also suffice, if the guild needs to catch up (and wishes to do so in the current raid).

    This, however, poses something of an issue. Because the gear separation between 10- and 25-man is also a tier of separation, it causes 25-man content to trivialize 10-man content. Without weird levels of separation like "slightly better than a tier", as we have now, you can just obtain the easy 25-normal gear and steamroll 10-hard. Note that I'm not ignorant of the fact that this issue already exists to some extent with the current system, I just think that adjusting the gear parameters (and rewards) of normal vs hard mode would make it somewhat worse.

    Now, then, we have come to the real problem: an arbitrary separation of item quality between 10- and 25-man. This might stem from the fact that, originally, 10-man seems intended to have been the "easy mode", and 25 the "hard mode" (evidenced by the relative difficulty of Naxx's two modes). It also might stem from the classic argument that 25-man is inherently harder than 10-man. Obviously, with the advent of hard modes for both 10- and 25-man, we can discern that it is not Blizzard's design goal for 10-man to be "easy mode" and 25-man to be "hard mode". In addition, I contend that it is false that 25-man is inherently harder than 10-man.

    Consider, for example, 3D Sarth. Here is an encounter that was generally considered to be noticeably harder in its 10-man incarnation than its 25-man. From that, we can see that encounter difficulty is not necessarily easier in 10-man. Another facet of the classic "25-man is harder" argument is that it's harder to build and maintain a 25-man raiding force, and this additional work should be rewarded. As anyone who has ever tried to lead a PuG raid knows, it is indeed harder to put together a 25-man raid than a 10-man raid. I will not dispute this. Further, I have never led a raiding guild myself, but I can only imagine that the challenge of keeping a cohesive guild is similarly increased from 10 players to 25.

    What I do dispute, however, is the degree of difficulty. By having a tier of separation between 10- and 25-man, and a tier of separation between hard and normal mode, the connotation is essentially that "the increase in logistical difficulty from a 10- to a 25-man raid is the same as the increase in difficulty between normal and hard mode encounters". Now, with all due respect to the guild leaders of 25-man guilds, I contend that this is absurd. The jump from normal to hard mode encounters is a vast gap, requiring an entirely different caliber of player than normal mode. While the jump from 10 to 25 players is not to be ignored, neither is it incapable of being performed by any decent guild leader. The casual 25-man guilds we see in WoW today are a testament to this. Essentially, what I'm saying is that if you can competently manage a 10-man guild, you can competently manage a 25-man guild.

    Furthermore, guild management is not something I feel is within the scope of the game to reward. Guilds are, by their nature, player organizations. The game facilitates them, but they are not an inherent part of the game. Having a more difficult guild to manage, then, isn't something that necessarily ought to be rewarded by in-game rewards. Again, we can look to other games for inspiration. No other games reward you for overcoming extra challenges that are outside of the game. Princess Peach doesn't suddenly strip naked if the player controlling Mario has terrible vision, and has Parkinson's disease. He had to overcome extra challenge, but the increased reward is in the personal satisfaction he obtains, and the admiration of his peers - it does not come from the game.

    As a result, it is my opinion that in Cataclysm, the gear reward system should be changed a bit. It's probably too late to do this for WotLK, but Cataclysm will be an ideal time, since we'll have a clean slate again. 10-man and 25-man raids should drop the same gear. This will accomplish two things: one, it will prevent 25-normal content from trivializing 10-hard content. Two, it will bring the state of raiding closer to the ideal we heard espoused before WotLK shipped: that whether you raided 10- or 25-man content was a matter of which mode you preferred, and/or could find the people for.

    I assume that the "choice" philosophy that was espoused by Blizzard when this expansion was announced was sincere, and not just rhetoric. If that's the case, they should have no issue with making the 10 vs 25 decision purely a matter of personal preference. I know that a decent number of players will probably choose to do 10-man rather than 25-man as a result of this proposed change, but I see nothing wrong with that. If we wish to enable choice, and players choose an option which was previously unattractive, who are we to judge?

    It may be, of course, that Blizzard's design goal is to have 25-player raids be more attractive, due to the perceived increase of challenge, or simply because they think it's more fun. If that's the case, there's nothing we can say to convince them. However, unless that's the case, I hope the designers are thinking about the notion of removing the 10 vs 25 disparity, because as far as I can tell, there's no reason it shouldn't be done.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by visualdeity View Post
    I assume that the "choice" philosophy that was espoused by Blizzard when this expansion was announced was sincere, and not just rhetoric. If that's the case, they should have no issue with making the 10 vs 25 decision purely a matter of personal preference. I know that a decent number of players will probably choose to do 10-man rather than 25-man as a result of this proposed change, but I see nothing wrong with that. If we wish to enable choice, and players choose an option which was previously unattractive, who are we to judge?
    Sorry to sound negative in the first post and I'll try to keep it short, but from what I can tell your entire statement and suggestion of a significant change to how raids are currently set up is based on an opinion that you have (that 25-mans are more attractive than 10-mans because of the gear) that you have used to describe the majority of raiders in WoW. I personally love 10-mans. I love that a 10-man raid group seems (to me) to be able to grow a lot closer than a 25-man. I love the difficulty that encounters at a 10-man level are at.

    Choosing between progressing in 10s or 25s is still a choice, progressing through both is also a choice. But, if you are trudging through 25s because it gives you better gear than 10s, well that's just an odd thing to do for a game. If you like both and are progressing through both then I don't see an issue. Fixing something that looks like it's working fairly well seems odd to me.

  3. #3
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    I enjoy our 10-man runs much more, gear be damned.

    In our 10-man core, we have the most mature, dedicated, skilled, and intelligent players. It's more laid back, things run smoother, there are less random AFKs and disconnects, and we work together as a team like a well-oiled machine rather than an old clunker some goblin pieced together from bubble gum and duct tape.

    Our 25-mans are usually just an exercise in frustration for the 10-core (mostly due to downtime, rather than wiping,) but we run them at least 2-3 nights each week so that more people in the guild get to raid.

  4. #4
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    As a dedicated 10-man hard mode raider, I sometimes feel completely screwed over by Blizzard. Like they don't care about the serious 10-man raider. Now I'm not a loot whore by all means - else I'd be raiding 25s - but it still feels disheartening sometimes. Like insufficient Trophies in 10s to make T9 worthwhile (non-tier is 245), Emblems of Conquest being handed out for free after we worked our asses off in Ulduar hard modes for them, at the same time as our Ulduar10 normal gear was devalued to 5-man quality. It feels like an insult, but I'm willing to take all of that, as long as the raids are good. Where Ulduar was one awesome step forward, I feel Coliseum is two steps back. I hope Icecrown Citadel will be the best so far, but I fear we've already had the best.

    gear no longer matches difficulty
    Blizzard's worst mistake gear-wise is the Coliseum. It's much easier than Ulduar, yet it drops higher ilvl loot. This fallacy is what made tBC so much better. Casual players don't even care about going Ulduar10 anymore, even though they haven't seen everything of normal mode yet. Call that a waste of content. None of my server's top guilds were even done with Ulduar hard modes yet in their respective progression paths as Coliseum was released. So in fact, nearly everybody, casual to all-but-the-very-best who downed Algalon & Yogg+0, still had PvE content on their hands. The Coliseum patch came too early.
    The same fallacy also applies to the additional 5-man instance btw. MgT, the Sunwell 5-man, was a great addition. It was fun and quite a challenge (although it overvalued CC dps) compared to the other heroics and awarded better gear accordingly. Now with MgT in mind, look at ToC5: first boss is a lolpwn event on gimmicky mounts. The other fights are by all means much easier than many other lvl80 heroics. Brewfest boss dropping 2x insane must-have tanking trinkets, only slightly outvalued by a ToC raid drop. Another epic fail.

    10s vs 25s difficulty
    Like I said, gear isn't the reason I raid. Having fun with my IRL friends who live in another area of the country is why I raid 10-man. So although I'm disappointed with Blizzard in the way they hand out PvE gear, I'm far more concerned about the quality of the content they offer for 10s. I'm not raiding 10 because I want easier raids; it's a personal choice. I want to have access to the same level of (hard mode) difficulty as 25s. I want to get smacked like the 25 tanks. Of course, there's less healers per tank in 10s, but there's also less raid damage and my healers are complaining they get bored with it and want to switch to dps lately.
    Sarth+3 has been the only fight where 10s really had a chance to shine, the example is used too often and is not representative, I know, sorry. Ulduar was OK, but Coliseum is going the wrong way: decreasing difficulty! Apparently, the dev team thought Ulduar was too Ulduhard. Not accessible enough for every casual player. I see the direction they're going in. I'm already mentally prepared for the first:
    LFM IC10 Arthas run, /w stats and achi
    I sincerely hope I'll never have to see that, but the idea alone makes me want to quit WoW before Cataclysm. The announcements about the new xpac haven't shown me any reason to stay, only tinkering down the wrong road further and further in my opinion.

    In an ideal WoW PvE, I'd say 10s and 25s are completely equal progression paths and players pick one or both based on what they enjoy best. At the start of WotLK, I had expected 25s guilds to not waste their raiding time on 10s. Oh boy, was I wrong. I can understand that some of the 25 raiders like the cozy 10s as a welcome change of pace, but I honestly feel sorry for many of those 25 guilds that feel obligated to farm the 10s for loot, while they could have better spent their time progressing in 25-man. Let 25 bosses drop more loot, so they dont need to. Who enjoys farming the same bosses over and over again anyway? The loot whores, I should have known.

    the solution
    The only way to uphold both principles of equally difficult progression paths and gear matching difficulty is to have 10s and 25s hard/heroic modes award equal loot. Normal mode loot and difficulty can be different, to accommodate for casual PuGs. That's no problem as long as hard mode loot from the previous tier is sufficient for hard modes of the current tier, like the OP suggested. I suggest that encounter success has to be based on actions more than gear anyway. A staple example imo was Hodir hard on 10man. My guild's first kill was in time for the pre-nerf enrage timer (2:21), because we used all buffs correctly. Better gear only allows for more slack.
    I've heard people argue that equalizing gear would be the killing blow to 25 raiding. If that's the case - loot is the only reason people raid 25s - then they're raiding 25s for the wrong reason.


    TL;DR version
    • The hardest content should award the best gear.
    • Blizzard needs to stop screwing over the dedicated 10-man raiders.
    • The above two principles demand that 10 and 25 hard/heroic modes need to be equal in difficulty and award equal loot.
    • If people raid 25s just for the loot, they're raiding for the wrong reason.

    PS: can anyone link me the WoW forum thread?
    Last edited by Síhrtogg; 09-27-2009 at 07:48 AM.

  5. #5
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    Enjoyed reading your thoughts and agree with some of it.

    My primary question is: What would people's motivation be for putting together, organizing, and maintaining an arguably more challenging 25-man raid force as opposed to a 10-man raid force if the rewards are equal?

    I believe gear is a primary motivating factor in this regard. If you take that away it seems to me that you would have very very few hardcore, dedicated 25-man guilds left. They would all split into hardcore 10-man guilds as the logistical overhead is the same, the rewards the same, and no tangible difference between the two except more work in the one case and less work in the other case.

    What could the designers do to make 25-man raids attractive outside of higher ilvl gear, if anything?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Síhrtogg View Post

    TL;DR version
    • The hardest content should award the best gear.
    • Blizzard needs to stop screwing over the dedicated 10-man raiders.
    • The above two principles demand that 10 and 25 hard/heroic modes need to be equal in difficulty and award equal loot.
    While I'm on board with making raid size unattached to gear iLvl (old threads), the devs seem content with the current approach of rewarding 25m raiding over 10m raiding. They feel the extra organization should result in higher iLvl gear, regardless of the effect on the smaller-sized raiding scene.

  7. #7
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    I think it's fair to say that Blizzard have been trying different things in this area, and while each has it's advantages, they haven't quite nailed it yet.

    - S3D was cool, but it had it's flaws. The whole business with raid stacking, using mad specs to survive breaths that we were probably never 'intended' to, etc.

    - Ulduar was cool, but it had it's flaws. With so many bosses, and a raid structure that meant some gated others in a given week, it made for headaches around progress planning. You want to progress on Thorim hard, but if you don't kill him then you can't clear Yog'Saron that week, etc. I also guess that making up hard modes that are controlled by in game gimmicks was becoming a headache for the encounter designers.

    - TOC is kinda cool, but it too has flaws. With a big jump from normal to hard, and no options about which boss you access, if you get stuck on the heroic beasts you hit an uncomfortable brick wall (which I believe many guilds are). The fact that the regular tier is so small and clearable in a matter of hours leaves you wondering where to go next.

    It'll be interesting to see which way they go with IC. I guess the fact that they've added heroic mode to the menu indicates that it's likely to go the same way as TOC, but that with more bosses in both modes and perhaps a less linear progression path available through the instance giving you some choices, maybe they'll find a sweet spot.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erja View Post
    Enjoyed reading your thoughts and agree with some of it.

    My primary question is: What would people's motivation be for putting together, organizing, and maintaining an arguably more challenging 25-man raid force as opposed to a 10-man raid force if the rewards are equal?

    I believe gear is a primary motivating factor in this regard. If you take that away it seems to me that you would have very very few hardcore, dedicated 25-man guilds left. They would all split into hardcore 10-man guilds as the logistical overhead is the same, the rewards the same, and no tangible difference between the two except more work in the one case and less work in the other case.

    What could the designers do to make 25-man raids attractive outside of higher ilvl gear, if anything?
    You're absolutely correct. There will probably be a major shift from raid sizes from 25-man to 10-man if what I said comes to pass. However, I don't honestly see this as a problem, which needs to be resolved. I do believe in what Blizzard preached to us before WotLK: that which raid size you have is a matter purely of personal preference. Right now, it's a choice based on both preference and gear (although there are still devoted 10-man guilds out there, and make no mistake, I salute those who have embraced their chosen form of raiding despite a deficiency in gear reward).

    Yes, 25-man raider population will probably decrease. Probably noticeably. That's not bad, though. It's merely the result of making the options equal, and people free to choose their preferred raid size without other factors. I know that there will be those who field two 10-man raids because it's logistically easier. That's not ideal, but I think it may be an unavoidable consequence of giving players choice. Any time we give the players choice, there are those who pick the "best" option no matter what they would truly prefer to do. Right now, people may be raiding 25s if they prefer 10s because they want better gear. In the future, people may raid 10s if they prefer 25s because they see it as easier. In the end, no matter what you do, some people will feel pressured to pick an option that goes against their true preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    While I'm on board with making raid size unattached to gear iLvl (old threads), the devs seem content with the current approach of rewarding 25m raiding over 10m raiding. They feel the extra organization should result in higher iLvl gear, regardless of the effect on the smaller-sized raiding scene.
    I could perhaps condone a small increase in ilvl, but what we see right now is a bit much to me. There is extra organization, it's true, but the increase in difficulty is not so great that it merits an entire tier of separation. Like I said, I don't think anyone can honestly claim that the extra difficulty from 10- to 25-man raiding is the same as the extra difficulty from normal to hard mode... and therefore, we shouldn't reward it as much.

    Oh, Sihrtogg, the thread I posted on the WoW forums is here.
    Last edited by visualdeity; 09-27-2009 at 08:46 AM.

  9. #9
    10 and 25 should never reward equally. 25 will always be harder. I don't understand why it is so hard to see this.

    Why would anybody ever put in more work to achieve something when the same result is obtainable through less work? They wouldn't. Saying people would still run 25s because they enjoy the challenge is horrendously naive.

    Why don't you currently tempt to 7 man every 10 man hard mode encounter? Because there is no alternative reward.

    10m ToGC was defeated the day it was released. Within hours. 25m ToGC took an extra week. It's harder and deserves more.

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    25-man is not, however, inherently harder than 10-man. 3D Sarth proved that, if they choose, Blizzard can make 10s as hard or harder than 25s.

    It's true that harder content should lead to greater reward, but 25-man content is not necessarily harder.

  11. #11
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    Capping the raid size at 25 does not by any stretch make it inherently more difficult than capping the raid size at 10. The difficulty comes in encounter design. The 10 man hard modes were designed assuming a certain amount of dps and healing and etc. The 25 man hard modes were designed assuming more. That does not mean that the 10 man hard mode content could never be designed to be more difficult than the 25 man content.

    Imagine a world where 10 man content was only hard mode and 25 man was only easy mode, would it be correct in that setting to reward better loot to the 25 player group?

    My problem all along with 25s giving better loot is that the thing that makes 25s harder has nothing to do with the fights... its finding 25 people who are consistent and work together. It is definitely easier to make a competent 10 person group... but that has nothing to do with the encounters themselves.

    Just because the 25 man content (for now) is harder and gives better rewards does not mean that is the only way it could ever be.

  12. #12
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    25man fights are also more complex generally. more adds & more abilities used more often, more chaos, etc. 10man ulduar was a joke compared to 25man ulduar - not because of gear, but because of the complexity of the fights in many cases. Many people forget about the complexity of the fights in these 10m vs 25m should/n't give equal gear discussions. When the devs were talking about designing 10man instances they specifically mentioned that they could not make the fights quite as complex as they could on 25man because there was just a limited amount of stuff that they could expect the raid to cover vs what a 25man raid could cover. That doesn't mean all 25man fights are more complex than 10man fights but there have been many cases where the fights are simply not as complex on 10man as on 25man.

  13. #13
    I'm assuming anybody arguing for similar complexity between 10 and 25 has never raid lead before... =o

    25 variables presents a significantly more complex situation then 10. The only way for equality in relative difficulty would be

    A. More complexity
    B. Higher gear requirements

    10 man M'uru given properly scaled DPS, tank and healing requirements would have been killed in 2 hours. Tank on door adds, tank on exit adds, tank(possibly a DPS tank for the sake of only 2 tanks per 10 man) on Sentinels, healer at door, healer at exit, healer on DPS tank, 1 DPS on door adds, 1 DPS on exit adds, 2 DPS splitting their time between M'uru and adds.

    Extraordinarily easy to figure out proper player assignments. No question as to what has to be done due to the limited possibilities. My guild spent multiple nights tossing around individuals to adjust for DPS/healing slack on various sides. In a 10 man? Physical DPS right, caster left. Done.

    Tiny room for error. 1/25 causes a wipe vs 1/10. Given the same playing ability and a arbitrary 1/5 chance of error. In a 10 man you would have a 10.7% chance that nobody would make in error. In a 25 man you would have a .378% chance for no error. SIGNIFICANT difference. The 10 man group would have 28 flawless attempts before the 25 man group had one.

    25man fights are also more complex generally. more adds & more abilities used more often, more chaos, etc. 10man ulduar was a joke compared to 25man ulduar - not because of gear, but because of the complexity of the fights in many cases. Many people forget about the complexity of the fights in these 10m vs 25m should/n't give equal gear discussions. When the devs were talking about designing 10man instances they specifically mentioned that they could not make the fights quite as complex as they could on 25man because there was just a limited amount of stuff that they could expect the raid to cover vs what a 25man raid could cover. That doesn't mean all 25man fights are more complex than 10man fights but there have been many cases where the fights are simply not as complex on 10man as on 25man.
    Right, in my previous example, 10 man M'uru. We relied on a 3 hunter rotation for misdirection for sentinels. A luxury not available in 10 mans. No option to remove that facet and, thus, an easier fight by a small degree.

  14. #14
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    It's ALOT easier to co-ordinate 10 people than it is to co-ordinate 25. Due to this 25 man's will ALWAYS be more complex even if the ecounters mechanics are the same.

    If loot rewards were better in 10 man (or the same) then why would you bother trying to even do 25 mans?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamani View Post
    10m ToGC was defeated the day it was released. Within hours. 25m ToGC took an extra week. It's harder and deserves more.
    The people doing ToGC10 no doubt had all the lv245 gear from normal ToC25. It's no different than how people who farmed Naxx25 or Uld25 found the 10-man hardmodes a "breeze".

    Then there are exceptions like OS3D, Freya+3, and Anub'arak where the hardmode takes a significant step away from normal mode. Even on those, assuming high caliber players, 50 attempts is a lot of tries to find a solution.

    While I agree that 25-man should generally be rewarded better than 10-man, I do not believe that 25-man normal mode should be the same gear ilvl as 10-man hardmode, even if the 25 normal gear is "less optimized". Yes, you can take normal 25-man gear and have an edge doing 10-man hardmodes, but 10-man hardmodes -generally- require a higher level of skill than 25-man normal.

    Sure 25s are more complex and take more organization, but right now you can pug normal ToC25; try that with ToGC10.

    I believe the ilvl hierarchy should go: 10 Normal < 25 Normal < 10 Hard < 25 Hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maat View Post
    The people doing ToGC10 no doubt had all the lv245 gear from normal ToC25. It's no different than how people who farmed Naxx25 or Uld25 found the 10-man hardmodes a "breeze".

    Then there are exceptions like OS3D, Freya+3, and Anub'arak where the hardmode takes a significant step away from normal mode. Even on those, assuming high caliber players, 50 attempts is a lot of tries to find a solution.

    While I agree that 25-man should generally be rewarded better than 10-man, I do not believe that 25-man normal mode should be the same gear ilvl as 10-man hardmode, even if the 25 normal gear is "less optimized". Yes, you can take normal 25-man gear and have an edge doing 10-man hardmodes, but 10-man hardmodes -generally- require a higher level of skill than 25-man normal.

    Sure 25s are more complex and take more organization, but right now you can pug normal ToC25; try that with ToGC10.

    I believe the ilvl hierarchy should go: 10 Normal < 25 Normal < 10 Hard < 25 Hard.
    i did 4/5 ToGC in a pug, nuf said.

    like kamani said, because of the nature of 10 mans the encounters themselves have to be tuned down because you only have 2 tanks, and 2-3 healers. it would have been impossible to make muru a 10 player fight because, frankly, a fight would not exist anymore.

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    I'm not sure I ever understand the argument that 10 = 25.

    If you're a dedicated 10-man raider, you have content available to you and it's appropriately difficult based on the gear drops available to you (on the assumption that your 10 never every pug a 25 man).

    If you're a 25-man raider, you have access to 2 types of content.

    Let me use this paragraph from the OP to illustrate my point:

    As a result, it is my opinion that in Cataclysm, the gear reward system should be changed a bit. It's probably too late to do this for WotLK, but Cataclysm will be an ideal time, since we'll have a clean slate again. 10-man and 25-man raids should drop the same gear. This will accomplish two things: one, it will prevent 25-normal content from trivializing 10-hard content. Two, it will bring the state of raiding closer to the ideal we heard espoused before WotLK shipped: that whether you raided 10- or 25-man content was a matter of which mode you preferred, and/or could find the people for.
    If you're a dedicated 10-man raider, you really shouldn't care whether a 25-man raider is finding a 10-man hardmode easier (or harder). Why should it matter that a 25-man guild/raid can clear them faster? Does it detract from the challenge a 10-man guild/raid faces? I would argue that it doesn't .. unless you're pushing for 10-man achievements. In which case we are really talking about e-peen as opposed to enjoying your 10-man raid environment. Put it another way: If you're a dedicated 10-man raider .. you know that you beat a boss without 25-man gear. Sure you might not get the title .. but surely that satisfaction should be enough?

    Also, gear level doesn't affect your choice. If you want to raid 10-mans because that's what you enjoy, nothing Blizzard has done affects that. Unless your perogative is better loot. Which I think shouldn't really play a part in the discussion of types of raids you enjoy.

    Edit: The perceived attractiveness of 25-man gear over 10-man gear is overrated when it comes to hardmodes. 25-man hardmodes are that much harder that it's normally an exercise in frustration to get things done compared to a closely knit 10-man (at least from an anecdotal perspective).
    Last edited by law90026; 09-27-2009 at 11:18 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Erja View Post
    My primary question is: What would people's motivation be for putting together, organizing, and maintaining an arguably more challenging 25-man raid force as opposed to a 10-man raid force if the rewards are equal?
    This is why 10man has lower loot in the first place.
    But it could probably be alleviated by having 25man drop unproportially more loot. ~3x as much (proportional would be 2,5x, currently we mostly have 1,5x...).
    Same itemlevel, but 3x as much loot. Make it undissable if it's a problem.


    That way 25man gears you fast - just not better.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post
    This is why 10man has lower loot in the first place.
    But it could probably be alleviated by having 25man drop unproportially more loot. ~3x as much (proportional would be 2,5x, currently we mostly have 1,5x...).
    Same itemlevel, but 3x as much loot. Make it undissable if it's a problem.


    That way 25man gears you fast - just not better.
    That still doesn't explain why 10-mans should have the same loot as 25-mans, other than 10-man QQ that it's unfair to them (for whatever reason).

  20. #20
    Because otherwise it breaks the doability of the 10mans on a larger scale. If 25man is the "superior" raidformat, it puts outside stress on 10man teams since they are always running the "inferior" content.

    This is all nice and acceptable until you get a team which plays 10man not for doability-reasons (cannot organize larger guild), but for social reasons. All of a sudden, you're hurting them without having any specific reason why you should.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

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