Hey all.
I'm a MainTankadin user mostly, but the issue has finally bugged me enough to come seeking another source for the information I really want.
I'm a Paladin MT for a casual guild that is just now working its way into 10 Man ToC. My gear isn't the best and I cry everytime I raid and the shield upgrade I desperately need doesn't drop.
But the question that has been bugging me is what weapon enchant to use. I am a huge fan of Mongoose and still feel it is the best chant. However, I see tanks all over my server using Blade Ward. Generally, I feel that these people are using it because the glow effect is purdy and it's the shiny new enchant of WotLK, but I'm starting to wonder if it has any viability in raiding.
I feel that both Mongoose and Blood Draining are superior to Blade Ward, but I would like to know general opinions on the comparisons of the chants. If it helps at all, I'll link my armory here to see if the enchant depends on current stats.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Any Discussion on the topic would be great. Also, if this has been discussed elsewhere, I apologize for creating a new thread. I couldn't really find this specific information anywhere else.
In ToCr? Blood draining will never beat bladeward. It doesn't extend your health because either the attack procd it and you got healed the next moment, or the attack gibbed you.
Opinions swing often on the usage of Bladeward. It's not a terrible enchant.
It would seem like if you wanted a EH enchant, you'd go Blood Draining.
If you wanted an avoidance enchant however, mongoose still outperforms blade warding. 26 Agi is another reliable way to go if you want a consistent bonus.
Here's my personal opinion:
Due to agi nerfs and bladeward's ability to stack (I've seen it stack enough to give me 7% parry) I would say that bladeward is the best avoidance enchant since mongoose uptime is something ridiculously low like 30-40%
The dodge/crit part of agi isn't what makes me completely discredit mongoose though. It's the armor. 240 armor (2 points per agi) is roughly 600 EHP depending on buffs/gear level.
HOWEVER, Blood Draining (imo) represents 2000 EHP and it's EHP when you need it (low health). Now Blood Draining isn't an immortality enchant or anything, and it's not going to save your life, but I'd take a 2000 heal over a 0.46% chance to dodge any day.
A lot of people say mongoose is better than bladeward (and I haven't seen exact calcs, I just know that I've seen bladeward give me way more avoidance than mongoose), however I think due to low PPM of mongoose, mongoose looses its viability. It's not a terrible enchant, but Blood Draining is probably the way to go.
Question for pallies out there: Will Blood Draining proc on a hit that procs AD? If so I'd say Blood Draining is DEFINITELY the enchant for pallies.
Actually to be honest, it seems that the uptime of Mongoose for me is extremely high.
All reports and parses I've seen indicate 30-60% tops.
I messed around with a weapon that had mongoose on it last night and the uptime was really low, closer to the 30% end.
Yeah.. I'd say mongoose uptime is about 2:1 to Blade Warding uptime.
Maybe cause Blade Warding doesn't always last the full duration.
Which is why I question whether or not Blade Ward is better.Originally Posted by Risky
This is from MainTankadin:
Blade Ward is like Mongoose, except it procs less often, provides less threat than Potency and no benefit to taunts, and is consumed by regular parries (i.e. those caused by other parry rating) and thus gets worse as your gear gets better.
I think lack of uptime is more proof that bladewarding is working than mongoose being better. The amount of avoidance gained by a proc of bladewarding is higher, and therefore more likely that you actualy avoid an attack. But this is also just comparision neglicting armor. The dodge component by itself on mongoose actually turns out to be less overall avoidance than 26agi, at least that's what the calculations at the begining of WotLK came out to be, I don't think anything has really changed regarding warriors and agi since then other than the flat out nerf in 3.2. Potency threat is dependant upong gear. If you're hit capped then the calculations are different - again something I've never looked into because I don't gem for threat.
Neither of the 4 enchants are huge "omg this is obviously awesome." If mongoose was as effective as it was at 70 then I'd say mongoose is the obvious choice, but I'm quite turned off by the low proc rate and huge nerf to the coefficients.
I preferred bladewarding for my style until I decided to gear everything for EHP (stuff in H-ToC hits really hard, lol). Blood draining still provides the most EHP imo, and that's (unfortunately) the only thing that really matters these days.
Blade Warding is like waving your hand infront of a shotgun hoping that everything will line up to not blow your face off, the chance of it actually saving you when you actually need extra chance to live is laughable I personally go with Blood Draining, but Mongoose is probably better than it, but Blade Warding isn't even in the conversation.
Could you please explain what you mean?
Evaluations like this don't matter without numbers. I've investigated the blade ward enchant with math and by breaking down logs. Your statement "Blade Warding isn't even in the conversation." is severely mis informed.
I would like to see this math and breakdowns. I actually really believe you, I've just never seen the numbers. I've just seen my parry go above 30% because of bladeward procs =P.
But Parry suffers much harsher Diminishing Return than Dodge, so I'd figure it'd be more efficient to go with Dodge.
Stop guessing stuff, and stop assuming things based on numbers when you were level 70. Yes, Mongoose gave you learn 4% dodge back when you were tanking at level 70.
Do you know how much dodge Mongoose gives you now while raid buffed? If you have 25% dodge unbuffed, then raid buffed, you'll gain 0.45% dodge from Mongoose procs. Paladins get slightly more dodge from Agility, so I think they get close to 0.60%
Do you know how much Parry gives you if you have 19% Parry unbuffed? 2.81% Parry.
All these numbers are after Diminished returns.
Not only does Blade Ward give you over 5 times as much Avoidance as Mongoose on an average geared tank... but it also stacks and refreshes the duration, giving you EVEN MORE avoidance when it procs multiple times in a short timeframe. This is comparable to Mongoose, which only overwrites itself.
Blade Ward is easily many times better than Mongoose, and even a Paladin should not consider using Mongoose while tanking. Anyone who says Mongoose is still a viable tanking enchant for a Paladin or a Warrior is living in Burning Crusade and has not done the math.
EDIT: Yes, I know this doesn't account for the dispelling if you Parry, or duration differences, however, prior to the Parry buff, I did the math on it which fully accounted for every aspect of the enchant, and Blade Ward still won indiscriminately on Warriors, and tied so closely to Mongoose for Paladins, that I could not discern which was better for them. After the Parry buff, Blade Ward is now makes Mongoose look like a joke. I just cracked out the basic numbers quickly for the new Parry.
[Female Tauren Warrior]
But what I am trying to say is that that extra avoidance only lasts until your next parry, which judging by gear can be consumed quite quickly. Thus you would have the effect less often than the effect from Mongoose.
Edit: Just went to test Mongoose on the dummy. When Mongoose procced, I jumped from 25.11% Dodge to 26.53% Dodge. So the dodge rating that it gives doesn't seem to be as bad as you believe.
Last edited by Mathenis; 09-24-2009 at 11:10 PM.
Have a look at this one. While I don't feel endangered I changed to this one after the recent threat nerfs and the absence of hit rating on all BiS gear.
Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Spell - World of Warcraft
Cheers!
skaggi
I repeat.
After the Parry buff, there is no comparison. Blade Ward is so much better it's not even funny.
Post Parry buff, Mongoose becomes better around when you have 3+ mobs hitting on you. So if you wanna carry a weapon for trash, have fun. But Blade Ward will always be better for a tank who is handling bosses.
You know what, I'mma going to see if I can't find a copy that old spreadsheet wherever it is, and re-input it with the new parry numbers.
[Female Tauren Warrior]
Cool, glad to finally see some numbers on this to confirm my suspicions.
Do you have any numbers or opinions on the armor gained from Mongoose vs. EHP of Blood Draining?
Some breakdowns of logs where the tank had Blade Ward enchanted pre parry buff. Some of the logs may not be viewable anymore due to them expiring but I did write up some of the specifics from those encounters as they relate to the enchant.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/5...ding-logs.html
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